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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Guys,

I went into Wallyworld on Tuesday to see what ammo they had (hate that place). Anyway, I have never gotten any there previously since they are always out when I go in. This time I decided to check on some 40cal., they had none. They did have one box of Win White Box of 44 mag 240 JSP.

I have always bought Rem Prem 240 SPs and my 44s are set to this round, these are rare around here and very expensive when I find them, so I thought that the WWB would be OK to try since it was $32/50 rd box, good price. So I bought it thinking if OK I could change to this round.

I got home and inspected them and found 1 of 50 that had the brass jammed in as the bullit was pressed in, in a scalloped pattern around the brass rim. This is not acceptable to me, I'm currently a Quality Manager and this is not what I call quality.

Anyone else have this or other problems with WWB 44mags? I get WWB in 40 cal no probs.

I can't find a phone number for them. Does anyone have the Win Ammo Customer Service phone number? I would appreciate it greatly.

I want to see if they will comp me with another box of ammo. I'd don't want to go back to Wallys because they don't have anymore and never know when more are coming in. The Ammo counter guy was rude the time I bought the box, he would not give me any info on their incoming and wouldn't evern give me a number to call there.

Anyway, I want Win to know of my dissatisfaction and do something about this round.

Thx Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Well I did find the number, finally. 800-356-2666 opt 2 and then got directed to diff department and got Vmail, left a meassage to call me back.

I'll update when I find out what they will do.

While I wait...Has anyone else had any defective WWB rounds?

Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #3
OK, I called back to Winchester and finally got ahold of someone. I explained the issue with the round and she said they wanted it back and would send me a package to send to them the round. Then they will send me a coupon to get another box.

I'm still a little concerned obout the quality of this brand (Win White Box) so if anyone has experience with this ammo, please let me know. It will help me make a decision on whether I will switch to this round. Again I have favorable experience with WWB in .40 cal. I like it.

Thanks, Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Re: Update 09/10 Winchester Ammo Customer Service Phone number?

I have updated info.

I got the Standard form letter from Winchester along with the coupon for new ammo. When I talked to Win Ammo CS they told me that they would send me a coupon for a new box of ammo.

So when I got the letter, I was on my way out the door to get a box of 44 mags. Then I looked at the coupon, it was only for $20 not a box, and the orginal box cost $35, so I was not happy with the coupon for $20.

I went looking for ammo at Wally's and Meijers, neither had any 44 mags. So I bought some .40 at each store with cash. So I still have the coupon.

Anyway, I called back to Win CS and talked to the original lady I talked to that promissed me a coupon for "new box". She said that I got enough to get a half of a box and that was it since I only returned (1) round. She said that was good enough. .... NOT!!!! She could not justify giving me a whole box due to this standard policy. Then I told her that I could not justify me being a lifetime customer if they did not stand behind their WORD, and hung up.

By then I was pretty upset. I'm a Quality Manager in the auto buz and if I was to let a defect get to my customer I would have to start a corrective action project and report called an 8D or 8 Disciplines of Problem Solving and fix the problem and if I tell a customer I am going to do something I better get it done exactly the way I stated.

Anyway, I called back and got the supervisor, he gave me the same run-around about $20 being good enough for (1) defective round. I said, "Ya at face value you are correct but since I'll have to call around and drive around before I find a box (still rare around here), I'll have time and money in it myself and I didn't feel that their containment and compensation was adequite to satisfy me as a customer."

After a more pushing I got him to agree to send me another $20 coupon. I told him it wasn't about the money but was about the commitment to back up their word to me. He said if he thought is was about the money he wouldn't have agreed to send me a coupon.

The quality aspect of the deal was the real issue to me. I wanted to know what they did to correct the problem and he said they wouldn't tell me. I actually knew that would be the case but wanted an assurence that CA was taken. He said all problems are corrected.

Anyway, that's how it went with me on the one and only visible defective round I have bought in my entire life.

Hope this helps others. Has anyone else seen the problem I found?

What do you think of WWB ammo?

Thanks,
Dave
 

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I never had a problem with any WWB ammo, my LEO friend did have some that wouldn't cycle well in his Glock and he sent then 3/4 of a case and they sent him a full case back. No coupons. They also told him they did not find anything wrong with the ammo he sent them. One phone call was all it took for him.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hunter,

I have never had a problem with WWB .40cal in 165 or 180 FMJ or 180 BEBs either. All have performed fine and no issues with the formation of the rounds at all.

I did recieve the second coupon yestarday and I went to Wallys and got another box of the 44s and a box of .40s as well.

I inspected the 44s and all were fine in appearence. Now to shoot them!!!!

Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hey kingofthedemo,

I didn't see this until now.

Here's the number: 800-356-2666 opt 2

Was you defect as I described mine?

Hope you get it worked out.
 

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WGlide, I am curious if you were more upset that their QA procedure didn't prevent the manufacture of the round or that their QC didn't catch it after the fact? Have you been able to do any digging to find out what level of sigma their manufacturing processes are at? I am intrigued by this issue from a business perspective.

pyratemime, PMP
 

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It is rather common to have some types of factory ammo not function properly in your particular gun. Some guns are fussy about the ammo they shoot. You have to find what works.....in your gun! ;)

That applies to, not only .22's....but all factory ammo. Just like ....not all factory ammo is accurate in your gun. You have to search around for the right ammo. Most shooters/hunters understand this. It was never an issue, before this.

Just like, you have to search around for the best handload. They all are not equal. Bob
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Pyratemime,

I had asked the manager there and a technician what corrective actions they will be putting in place and the reply was that they will not tell me anything other than the problem will be looked at and corrected. You know, proprietary processes and all. I had anticipated that anyway. They assured me they are doing everything possible to prevent it again.

I'm more concerned that they let it get out since I know there is not any 100% perfect manufacturing processes. But this should never get into a box for sale. I have never seen one like it in all my shooting life time.

But when I design a manufacturing process I design-in proper controls, to first prevent a failure mode, then I design-in detection for every failure mode that can be determined. Then the process is rated at each step for Severity (1 to 10) x Occurence (1 to 10) x Detection (1 to 10) = RPN (risk priority number). If the rating is not a low level more controls must be developed. Processes should meet Six Sigma standards. Unknown what Win sets for their standards.

I know that bullits are manufactured at a high rate of speed so things can happen, but there should be a LASER sensor or vision sensor at least, at EOL to catch and reject the bad round in the failure mode I got. It's pretty simple really.

Bob,

You make very good point about trying and finding rounds that work the best in any given gun. That is what got this started in the first place. I had tried several rounds in my first 44 mag and found the Remington 240 SP was for hunting, the most accurate in it. I used that round for over 20 years exclusively. Now that it is hard to find and very expensive I am searching for compareable replacement. That is what got me to the Win White Box, more available less expensive. And apperently less QC.

Anyway, I'll give them the benefit of the one time, that's it.

Dave
 

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While I certainly agreed with you WGlide that a bad round in a box is not acceptable I have to admit being a little taken aback by the level of reaction you have had as relates to the manufacturing process. Certain 6Sigma is the goal of ever company it is a truly daunting task. Assuming that Winchester who has the money to hire the expert manufacturing and quality process designers to achieve a 6Sigma during manufacture and then again at sampling that means that (for those of you following the conversation and not sure what 6Sigma is) that they have only 3 errors in every 1 million rounds manufactured and then only 3 out of every 1 million errors ever make it out of the factory. Under those conditions you got 1 out of 3 bad rounds that will exit the factory every 10 trillion. Not to be a stickler but if they meet this particular standard it is hard to fault them as not trying hard enough.

This is not to say that Winchester has such a well run process (if they did can you imagine the money they would make teaching other companies about it!) but even if they are only 6Sigma from beginning to end then 3 "bad" rounds escaping the factory in every 1 million is still the industrial standard for perfection. Saying all of this to ask, you seem offended and upset by there not being 100% perfection when as a quality person you have to know that is unattainable. Why are you so upset about the process? I get why you are upset by the customer service, that was a turkey.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Pyrate,

Naaa... not upset that they are not 100% perfect, I think you misunderstood that part. We all agree that manufacturing processes very rarely ever achieve that, I've never been withness to one.

I think there are 2 things in play here. First, I made a decision to attempt to change to a new realiable hunting round from a 20 yr realiable round to save some $. First attempt I was let down by finding this one. I guess if they have even come close to achieving 6S, Why am I the unlucky one? So, since I have the experience that I do, I doubt they come close to the ideal 6S. Not sure if they claim that at all anyway.

Anyway second, even if they produce this error, it should not get in a box. Technology is really on top of this with real time total inspection. But again the goal is Zero defects produced, until that is reached they must have Zero defects shipped. This can be achieved.

Anyway. I'm not mad about it as much as I was suprized when I found it. kubvcabo
 

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WGlide90 said:
Hey kingofthedemo,

I didn't see this until now.

Here's the number: 800-356-2666 opt 2

Was you defect as I described mine?

Hope you get it worked out.
Thank you for that number. To answer your question, The problem which I experianced was a differant malfunction. I was shooting a brand new pack of Winchester 38 Special FMJ ammunition and one of the rounds did not fire, I opened the cylinder and could see where the primer had been struck by the hammer, however it did not discharge, I suppose it may have been a faulty primer.
 
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