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Discussion Starter #1
A friend from work asked if I might want these (yes was the answer!), and I have to say I’ve never seen this marking on a box. All of you old LEO’s, was this normal ammo supply for officers? My dad never had anything issued, but he was in a small town. My son has issued ammo, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen the box it came in. The son’s is .45ACP, not 38 Special, but he saw this box and looked puzzled leading me to believe it’s not what he’s used to seeing.

 

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We used to have those in 9mm. They're not that old, circa mid-1990's I think.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
mm6mm6 said:
We used to have those in 9mm. They're not that old, circa mid-1990's I think.
mm6, I didn't think these were very old, I have boxes of ammo with the same packaging, but my question is about the powder load. Is it anything more than hot +P rounds that we can find at a gunshop, or at a gunshop a year ago when there was ammo? BTW, have you finished up that grilled pig yet? You made me jealous with us only having some measley ribs.... nfiofnp
 

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WADR, Winchester used such off-white, red/orange trim, Super X, "LEO Only" boxes back in the '80s. I've still got some put away in ammo cans to this day :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: ...
 

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Are they marked 38 Special +p+ ? If so they were loaded at 24000 CPU rather than the 20000 cpu of the +p 38 special. Having worked in a gun shop for over 25 years YES we did see them occasionallybut they were not available through regular commercial channels. The first ones I ever saw were shown to me by a federal officer that had just come back from his yearly Quals in GA. When our department went to 9mm we went with the 147 gr Ranger load which was the much maligned BLACK TALON loading witha a copper colored bullet that WW vollentarly stopped selling to civillians. The department I did some per deim work with used 9mm +p+ Federal loads that were not available through commercial channels but were less pressure than the US Military rounds used by the armed forces.

Looking at the head stamp I believe that the 2 numbers would be the year of MFG.
WCC+P+ on top and date. No need to give the caliber. My specimins of the 9mm+p+ WW are marked the same way also.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Jim, they are +P+ rounds, so I'm guessing they're the hot load you describe. Sorry for the response delay gents, the post was moved to the correct topic forum and I lost it! lgfhj
 

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Hi Everyone,

I just joined this Forum and this is my first post. I saw this picture and recognized the ammunition immediately. It is what is known as the "Treasury Load" and was manufactured by Winchester in this box design and also in a plain box. It was our issue ammo in BATF in the early 1980's (before their move to DOJ) and we shot it out of our S&W Model 66 w/2 1/2" barrel. Quite a light show in reduced light shooting. We also used it in the Secret Service, as well as the Customs Service. It is a +P+ load (I think somewhere on the box it indicates it is loaded to 30% HIGHER than regular .38cal rounds) and should not be fired in J frame handguns. There was a safety notice sent out to the gun magazines by Winchester during the 1980's. If you need more info drop me a lline. Glad to meet you all.
 

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These were also US Border Patrol issue sometime after 1983 and before 1987. As I recall there were a few Ruger Security Six .38's in the field and this was the proscribed load. I've got two boxes of the stuff around here someplace.... In the late 1980's the US Park Service shot an intruder off the White House fence with this load.... they riddled him and as I recall, he was DRT. The wounds were said to be impressive.

About the same time the issue .357 Load became the low-flash Remington 110 Grn SJHP. I always believed that the performance of the Treasury Load in incidents such as this lulled the Federal Service into accepting the "Super Bullet" concept. Miami of course changed all of that.....
 

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Funny story: Don't remember when, but back when I was "gun-showing," 'bout twenty years ago, a gentleman who had a table next to mine sold a couple of boxes of that stuff to several rubes on a Saturday. Sunday, one of them came back, visibly upset and agitated. He started yelling at the table holder that the ammo had blown-up his gun and that the table holder was going to buy him a new gun. The table holder - let's call him Jack, "table holder" is kinda awkward - told him he'd have to call Winchester or talk to the manufacturer of the gun to get it replaced. Nope, the rube wanted Jack to replace the gun. I don't remember what make or model the gun was, could have been a J-frame S&W or Taurus or...who knows?

Well, that exchange went on for a good five minutes, maybe more. Jack was calm and in control of himself. The rube was not. In fact, the rube was getting hotter and nastier toward the latter part of the exchange. Finally, Jack told the rube, "Look, pal, tell ya what. You bring in the gun so I can take a look at it and then I'm gonna shove it up your ass." Jack was big enough that he could have done it without any assistance.

By that time, two of the three EPPD officers working the show had seen and heard enough. They quietly and efficiently escorted Mr. Rube to the doors. I heard later that they told him if they saw him again, he'd be arrested and charged with disorderly conduct and trespassing.

Did the ammo blow-up the gun? I don't know. After the show I bought Jack a drink.
 

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Interesting . . .Back when Super Vel was what a knowledgable police officer was stuffing in
the cylinder of his revolver, I acquired a box and believe it had some sort of for police use
stamped on the box, I believe I saved the box, but will have to hunt for it.

I do remember when the KTW metal piercing rounds became available for the 357 magnum; the ones a TV network ran a special on in 1982 and branded them as cop killer bullets.

For those that don't know, the fear was these bullets could penetrate a police bullet proof
vest. I recall buying some at a retail gunstore, but was required to show police I.D. . .

I don't know if that was store policy, or the store had been asked by law enforcement to restrict sales. (this may have happened after the federal ban on armour piercing ammunition) I know the bullet had a hard brass core and was a high velocity round. It was said the brass core would not conform to the rifling and wore barrels excessively, so the core was covered with Teflon to cut down barrel wear. There were street stories that the teflon was used as a lubricant to increase penetration; not true.

The expose' really ticked off cops who felt the bad guys didn't need that information. The KTW round was developed for law enforcement to penetrate hard targets like car sheet metal and safetyglass windshields that could deflect a regular round. I recall that prior to the KTW round we had both 38 special and 357 rounds with metal jacketed sharp pointed bullets specifically for metal penetration; the KTW rounds were superior. In any case armour piercing rounds are now banned.
 

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Drew, I knew I could count on you - that was sort of bouncing around in my memory bank.
The word tungsten carbide came to mind. Being unsure I went into Wikipedia, thus the mistake, one source said copper another said hard brass core.

I was told tungsten way back when. I guess the main point is: It was hard metal because it had to be coated with teflon. I heard the velocity was approaching close to 2,000 fps, at
least that is what I was told - so I can't verify that one either.

Thanks for weighing in.

Hank
 

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Triplelock said:
Interesting . . .Back when Super Vel was what a knowledgable police officer was stuffing in
the cylinder of his revolver, I acquired a box and believe it had some sort of for police use
stamped on the box, I believe I saved the box, but will have to hunt for it.

I do remember when the KTW metal piercing rounds became available for the 357 magnum; the ones a TV network ran a special on in 1982 and branded them as cop killer bullets.

For those that don't know, the fear was these bullets could penetrate a police bullet proof
vest. I recall buying some at a retail gunstore, but was required to show police I.D. . .

I don't know if that was store policy, or the store had been asked by law enforcement to restrict sales. (this may have happened after the federal ban on armour piercing ammunition) I know the bullet had a hard brass core and was a high velocity round. It was said the brass core would not conform to the rifling and wore barrels excessively, so the core was covered with Teflon to cut down barrel wear. There were street stories that the teflon was used as a lubricant to increase penetration; not true.

The expose' really ticked off cops who felt the bad guys didn't need that information. The KTW round was developed for law enforcement to penetrate hard targets like car sheet metal and safetyglass windshields that could deflect a regular round. I recall that prior to the KTW round we had both 38 special and 357 rounds with metal jacketed sharp pointed bullets specifically for metal penetration; the KTW rounds were superior. In any case armour piercing rounds are now banned.
The really sad part of that was That that 1982 TV special was Directly responsible for the death of MANY Police Officers. In 1982 the vast majority of Americans had never even heard of a bullet proof vest. They showed the general public what a concieled bullet resistant vest was and how to kill a cop. Shoot him outside the vest. Evan Marshal reported that 4 Detroit Officers died with bullets in the head shortly after the airing of that wonderful piece of PRO CRIMINAL NEWS. They were told before hand that the story would cost lives and they aired it anyway. I do not believe that a single Teflon bullet was ever used to kill an officer but the Liberal News Media sure educated criminals as to what a vest was and how to defeat it. Even the comic strip Doonsbury continued with the education program to kill cops.
 

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Thats the one thing you can allways count on from the liberal media. That they will insist on their Freedom of Speech rights no matter what the cost is to anyone else. bobw
 

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Jim, I want to thank you for your post on media abuse and the result, a salient point indeed.

Bobw, The First Amendment doesn't uphold crying out "fire!" in a crowded theater. NBC's blatant disreguard for the safety of police officers, was of the above exception as far as I am concerned and a disgraceful decision on the part of that network.

Drew: Further research confirms your correction on sintered tungsten as the core of the KTW Bullet.

KTW started out with hardened steel, then switched to Kennertium W-10, which is a sintered tungsten alloy, heavier than lead. By the early 70's Kennertium became scarce, then KTW went to a lighter steel and later to a brass core.

With the tungsten alloy core the bullet weight was 200 grains -so much for the super high velcocity rumor. So this is where the confusion on my part came into play.

Hank
 

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Excuse me, I'm a bit confused. Everything that I've read about the 'FBI' or 'Treasury-load' , including an interview with the developer, stated it used a 158gr.Speer LSWCHP .38Spl +P at approx. 950fps out of a four-inch Barrel.

Can anybody clear this up a little?

hgapngpa
 
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