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Discussion Starter #1
Been looking for a nice target 38 as a shooter for club matches. Little bit of a competion going on with a friend of mine who shoots nice old Colt targets. Everybody else shoots modern stuff. Found a M&P Model of 1905 target today. It is I think 3rd change but did not have my S&W books with me to confirm sure. Out of state so won't see it to examine good for a week or so.

Don't like to risk a nice collector shooting, this one while shows good with nice stocks has a few problems. Factory re-blue and the stocks number does not match the revolver. Mechanicly perfect. To my eye it looks real good. Now looking for a nice vintage 148 gr WC bullet mold, Have a line on a Hensly and Gibbs 6 cavity. Would love to have an origional S&W grip adaptor or at least a Tyler with some patina.

Anybody have any shooting experence with these let me know. Will post photos and details shortly.

Boats
 

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Looking forward to the pictures!
 

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Boats,
My 1905-Third Target is a 1911 vintage.
I shoot it frequently, using the 148gr. wadcutters.
Aside from the hard-to-see, narrow sights, it's very well-balanced, points well, and is very, very accurate.
The gun has a beautiful finish, with a few spots of patina (grip straps) and some minor dits from 98 years of use.
It's a delightful gun to shoot, and light enough (even with a 6-1/2" barrel) that it doesn't need a grip adapter, IMHO.
Glad you found one!
Don
;)
 

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Hi Boat's,
mine, like Don's above is also 1911, however it's been refinished .
and yes though the sights may be a bit on the "skinny" side, the guns are wonderfully accurate .
mine also likes the light loads with a 148gr.wadcutters..
(and because i never get tired of showing off.. )
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks guys, this forum got me going on Targets. Many years ago shot a K22 in matches but got away from bullseye pistol match shooting. Looking forward to working with this one. Good tip on not needing grip adaptors. I am pretty fixed on Tylers for double action shooting and don't like changing Smith Stocks, Adaptators are a good compromise. Single action hand in pocket perhaps not needed. Never used them on the K22.

Bought the gun from Cherrys in North Carolina, I always tout them as a good source of S&W's, they have two collections for sale now, one real rough old Smiths. This nice target was sort of buried in all the rough guns. Came from another collector who went for conditon. Was nearby and had a chance to 'cherry pick" through.

Will take some pictues week or so after it migrates up to Virginia

Boats
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Here she is, Photos not up to standard had some light difficulties, Like shade on a bright day and not much lately. From the number and interpolating using Supica/Nahas I figure about 1928. Serial number has the * which indicated re-work and in this case surely re-blue. Action is as good as it can get. I have a number of Smiths shoot them all this one has the best trigger. Some people say it's due to the long action.

I do have a couple of sight questions. Partridge front has a small hole facing the shooter. Bet it used to have a bead, wonder if that is original, Rear sight blade has some of the finish knocked off and appears to be made of some copper or brass alloy. All I have ever seen were steel.

All and all real pleased and plan to shoot it in a Hartford-Springfield match with my buddy the Colt fan.





Boats
 

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A neat-looking gun, boats!
IMHO, there would have been an ivory bead in that front-sight hole.
It was probably a special-order or period modification, as the Patridge was standard.
Don
;)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
DH, Since did a bit of looking up. In McGiverns book he says quite a bit about sights, One page has photos of many front sights including Partridge sights with ivory and gold beads. None from the factory, most were Kings. I think but don't know S&W would fit Kings on S/0rder

I like black on black with a wide gap for any pistol work. Would not be hard to fit up a white or gold bead to go in that hole. However am not going to tinker with this one at all.

Except the Grip Adaptor that is. I could and will shoot it without one but it sure feels funny. Am using my regular two hand action pistol thumbs forward grip. Perhaps going to the bullseye left hand in pocket hold would be better. Got a nice old Mershon Grip adaptor off Ebay that was supposed to be for a Smith but turned out to be Colt. Gave it to my buddy.

Taking The M&P T to the range today.

Boats
 

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To be honest Boats, I didn't know what I was buying when I picked it up years ago. To me it was just a nice older 32-20, figuring a target M&P. It had been refinished so the collector value was gone and the price was appropriate - it was a shooter. I bought it on gun condition and the bore was bright and shiny, in my experience a rare commodity in old 32-20's. So not a 38 like you are looking for, but it did shoot better than my Colt Police Positive (4 inch barrel) in 32-20. Hopefully when you find one, it will do likewise when you are shooting against your friend.
 

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Ooops: Read your original post and didn't scroll down and see the beauty you picked up. My old dog was circa 1906-07. Rear sight appears to be steel. Best of luck with your's and beat that Colt fan.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Triple L, Nice revolver. 32/20 is intresting too. Just packed my range bag and taking for an outing tomorrow. Added a TGrip, Not the correct one but feels good, will see how I can do 25 yrds slow fire. Now after a nice old .22 Target Smith & Wesson Shooter. Know were a revolver said to be a "Breakhart" is, looking at it this week. Claims good mechanicals but poor finish, Armed with my Std catalog of Smith & Wesson.

My Buddy has Colt Officers model Match's in 38 & .22. I was Looking for a period Grip adaptor & got one off Ebay. Turns out it was for a Colt not S&W, so gave it to the Hartford fan.

Boats
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Been shooting the 1905 T some. A few "tweaks". Found a nice Pachmayr grip adaptor. Old with patina that goes well with the gun. Cleaned a lot of lead out of the throat.

Sights were a challenge. Fitted a screwdriver to the rear, windage is opposing screws not a click like new target Smiths and need something that fits properly. It's a small screw. Found the rear would not go low enough to zero on a bulls eye target at 25 yards. Even bottom of the bull hold groups were above the black about 3 inches. This gun had some sort of bead front sight. Hole is there but no bead. Expect it would have had the effect of making the front "look" higher. Until I can get a bead filed up a small piece of brass and CA glued it to the top of the front sight. Painted flat black it is hard to tell height is added, and can be removed with no damage to the front. It's zeroed nice now.

Settled on a 148 gr lead wadcutter pushed by a light charge of Hodgen Clays. About 750 FPS. Light and groups tight. It's a nice shooting target pistol. I don't see anything that makes a newer model any better for bullseye shooting.

Boats
 

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Found the rear would not go low enough to zero on a bulls eye target at 25 yards. Even bottom of the bull hold groups were above the black about 3 inches.
Hello Boats
Congratulations on your new M&P Target Model Purchase. In looking at your front sight blade it sure looks to me to be that at one time it had a McGivern Gold Bead . It is way different than Kritter's Target Model front sight blade in Looks. I would say Part of your problem with Zero'ing it in, maybe a Target Issue. I have Noticed when shooting the Older Pre-War Target models, that The Targets of today seem to have a different size Bulls eye circle. For this reason, I use the 20 Yard NRA Timed Rapid fire style Targets. These seem to work well with the Older Pre-War Target Revolvers when shooting at the Standard Six O-Clock hold. It is Odd that your Rear Blade would appear to be Brass, and now you have me wondering if your revolver was not used for Longer distance shooting perhaps the 50-75 Yard range which may explain of Why it shoots high ? Just Thinking here... Hammerdown
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hammerdown

Thanks agree these sights have been changed from Factory. I have McGiverns book and they look like his Bead front and some sort of homemade rear. Never seen a Smith with a Brass rear blade. Brownells has all sorts of beads. am going to gauge the hole and see if I can get one to match properly. Trick will be getting the right size for a proper sight picture. Will try to get a picture of the gun with the Pachmyer grip adaptor.

Meanwhile the glued on top works fine and probably provides a better sight picture than the Bead, at least for my 62 year old eyes. I know 6 o'clock hold is best for this one but need center of mass for the odd target matches we sometimes shoot. Bowling pins etc.


Thing I am working on now is seating the bullets. Those double end wadcutters deform a bit when seating in a Lee die made for pointed bullets. I have an old 310 die with a rusted seater. Am going to chuck it up in the lathe face off flat to use on the Wadcutters only. Can't quite decide to go perfectly flat or some cup to the outside to help center the wadcutter when seating.

Any advice on seating wadcutters appreciated

Boats
 

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I have McGiverns book and they look like his Bead front and some sort of homemade rear. Never seen a Smith with a Brass rear blade. Brownells has all sorts of beads. am going to gauge the hole and see if I can get one to match properly. Trick will be getting the right size for a proper sight picture



Hello Boats
I have a couple of suggestions for you here on what to do with your revolver sight issues. There is a Company called SDM In Ohio and Scott the owner of it Makes all the Current McGivern style gold bead sights along with The Fiber Optic sights for S&W.

He is very well versed in Making special sight Blades and may be able to place the Gold Bead back in your original sight blade. He should be able to tell you exactly what Height you should be at with your rear sight blade to Put your Hits dead on with a Six-O-Clock Hold. If your rear sight blade is too high he may be able to Mill it down to Move your Point of Impact down.



I know in the past when I have Ordered his Gold Bead sight blades, he always ask's me what barrel length I have to make certain the front sight blade is of correct Height to put me in the Ten ring area. As I mentioned previously Perhaps your rear blade was changed to off set the Point of Impact at Longer Range distances ?



If Scott can not be of Help, There is a Guy Named David Chicoine. He is an Old School Gun smith and I have Bought parts off him in the past. He currently has a Paine Bead front sight that Looks like it would work with your M&P Target revolver see his link Below as well. If Dave Thinks his paine Bead may not work, he too may be able to install The Gold Bead Back into your existing Blade.


On the Subject of Loading Wad Cutter's I also have the Lee dies and found that if you unscrew the seating Depth Knob and remove the bullet seater, it should have a straight wall seating face on the Opposite end. I simply turned mine around and it works fine without Molesting the bullets when seating them. I hope this helps, Hammerdown






http://www.sdmfabricating.com/


http://www.oldwestgunsmith.com/gunparts ... .htm#below
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Hammerdown,

Glad I asked. Will have a look at the Lee seater in more detail. Know SDM they are the go to guys for 625 & 686 competition sights did not know they did Retro Gold Beads. The have an excelent reputation.

Thing about this Revolver is the rear is low as it will go still grouping about 12 MOA too high. Nothing left to file or fit lower on the rear without the top strap interfering so all modifications have to be to the front sight. Will see how she zeros with my added top, that will give some indication of how high the front needs to be.

Keep your other gunsmith in mind too.

Boats
 

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Hi Boat's,
mine, like Don's above is also 1911, however it's been refinished .
and yes though the sights may be a bit on the "skinny" side, the guns are wonderfully accurate .
mine also likes the light loads with a 148gr.wadcutters..
(and because i never get tired of showing off.. )
Kritter I really dig those grips man. Very nice touch. I just got a 1905 4th change out of an estate sale and I was drawn to it b/c it has "ta-da" Murad comp style grips. Now that my gunsmith has received it I am finding out that the original owner had done quite a bit of mods to it for I can only guess must of been his passion.
 
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