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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Earlier this week I was glancing through some threads and one caught my eye, a strange one in fact where the OP was seeking help about shooting a snub nose J-Frame, yet curiously, in my opinion, was dismissive and rude to responding forum member's input, a very odd way to acquire help, but so be it, style is everything I suppose. That being what it is, it got me to thinking about how well I could at one time in my life shoot very accurately with one (a snubbie). I won't repeat the long story, but when my son was young and we'd be out shooting in the desert, he never caught on to my advice that shooting at fixed targets and trying to improve your aim was better than trying to hit golf balls thrown in the air with a blasting Beretta 92F! When he went into the police academy, he realized quickly how much he should have listened to me! Here are some old pictures when he was then a young cop and for some reason they were up at the shooting range and this is him shooting with his partners' gun, a 40 S&W caliber (my son was carrying a Glock 21 in 45 ACP back then). I reminded him when these pics were taken that at that distance, I could have and did deliver the same results with not a Smith and Wesson J-frame (because I didn't have one then), but with a Charter Arms Undercover! He's an even better shooter now because he knows how to shoot when receiving lead coming back his way, but still nods when I remind him of the 'old days'! :)

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I manage a private range at which the swat-team of the local Sheriff's Dept conducts training exercises. These, for the most part, consist of training to empty your mag (Glock, of course), then reload, in the shortest possible time. "Marksmanship" is an unknown concept, as far as I can tell.

But there's nothing unusual about this training philosophy--it's demonstrated every time you hear a news report of a police shooting incident in which it's reported that 12 rounds were discharged, but the intended target hit only once or twice...not counting bystanders.
 

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Me, I practice 'one shot one kill' but that is with a rifle on big game animals. Haven't a clue how I'd do with a tiny (short tubed) handgun. Never crossed my mind to even attempt that. I'd probably hit everywhere but center mass.
 

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Shooting accurately w/ a snub is all about steady hold & good trigger release - a skill that must be practiced. It's been my experience most cops can't shoot worth beans. I have friends & relatives who are LEO's, most shoot ok in close range combat practice (can hit a dinner plate fast & under 20') but lousy @ 25+ yards & totally worthless beyond that. I've watched a few trying to shoot snakes, rabid skunks, etc.... & needing several shots. The reason patrol cars had shotguns.
 

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I've watched a few trying to shoot snakes, rabid skunks, etc.... & needing several shots. The reason patrol cars had shotguns.
Two true incidents: hit a steer after dark at low speed (which is why I'm sill alive), but steer badly injured, & moaning terribly in the ditch. State trooper arrived with M1 carbine (occurred about 1970, so no machine gun), emptied the mag (15 rds?) into its body--moaning only intensified. Finally put it out of its misery with a couple rounds of his handgun, probably a .357.

During this summer, came upon a scene with a badly damaged car on one side of the road, & the deer it had hit on the other side. Another state trooper was just at that moment emptying his Glock into the deer's "center mass." Later I learned that a charity that had been called to salvage the meat rejected it because it had been shot up so badly.
 

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I had the honor and pleasure to shake Jack Wilson's hand last night. THAT Jack Wilson who dropped the guy with a shotgun in church 10 days ago - single shot to the head from around 40 feet (Sig P229, .357 Sig ammo). He led a team of 16-18 security guys - each of whom received around 300 hours per man of training over the 2 years the team was formed, from Jack, whose business is not just running a shooting range, but how to shoot, and security.

His number one message, one he repeated about 15 times - KNOW HOW TO SHOOT YOUR GUN, and that included with accuracy. He asked rhetorically how many people had read the manuals that came with their guns - had ever read the manual? His #2 message was to be mentally prepared to shoot the gun - to not freeze up, not suddenly question the sanctity of life. Be ready to use it if the need is there. #3 was to carry a round in the chamber.

If you're not ready, physically and mentally, to accurately shoot that gun in the instant you have to, you shouldn't be carrying it. If you have to hunt for where your gun is, then have to rack the slide to chamber a round, it's useless.
 

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Practice makes perfect. Since really getting into firearms I can see the results of frequent range trips and dry fire training have significantly improved accuracy. I am confident with being able to accurately deliver rounds if the situation warrants but hope I will never have to.;)
 

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Way back when, a group of friends and I started up the local handgun shooting club. We focused on PPC. The local LEO’s came out in the beginning to join in but soon stopped participating because they were getting whupped by civilians. Ego’s and all I guess.

Marksmanship with long gun or handgun is about muscle memory. Muscle memory is only achieved through repetition. I think as we aged, got married, had families, we shot less and less. We remember the drill in our heads, but the muscles not so much.
 

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It is a perishable skill that requires practice. Ditto on confusing a Glock with a shotgun.
It is indeed a diminishing skill. As my infirmities have increased in recent years, my ability to train has decreased dramatically and my accuracy gone downhill, or more correctly, fell off into the abyss.
Plus the expense of ammo is above my budget.
The end result is I’m now carrying a 32 auto as a last ditch “get off me” tool. The Model 36 I once was deadly accurate with at 25 yds now is carried by my brother-in-law. I carried it for more than a couple of decades and now can’t hit anything more than 10 feet away. My brother now carries it as his back up to his duty gun.
I have a few guns I shouldn’t have bought because I’ve never shot them and probably never will. They were used when purchased so there is not a great investment value in them. They will go to my brother-in-law when they put me in one of the local people warehouses.
How much I miss shooting cans with my wife! Seeing the smile on her face after she rolled a can or made it fly after each shot from her 65
was beautiful! She made my handgun practice a great deal of fun and so very pleasant!!!! :cool:
 

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Two true incidents: hit a steer after dark at low speed (which is why I'm sill alive), but steer badly injured, & moaning terribly in the ditch. State trooper arrived with M1 carbine (occurred about 1970, so no machine gun), emptied the mag (15 rds?) into its body--moaning only intensified. Finally put it out of its misery with a couple rounds of his handgun, probably a .357.

During this summer, came upon a scene with a badly damaged car on one side of the road, & the deer it had hit on the other side. Another state trooper was just at that moment emptying his Glock into the deer's "center mass." Later I learned that a charity that had been called to salvage the meat rejected it because it had been shot up so badly.
If you are ever in that situation with cattle or a horse imagine a vertical line down the middle of the head and a horizontal line 1 inch above the eyes. Shoot where the lines cross and it's an instant death 99% of the time.
The beef processor that does our meat comes to the ranch and kills them on site. He uses a 22 short in a single shot rifle from 10-15 feet. They are dead before their nose hits the ground.

Sent from my LG-H700 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I realize I started this thread about marksmanship, however, after certain responses, I can sense a bit of 'thread drift' which is fine with me, but dang, what can possibly be the low IQ/Common Sense quotient for anyone to think shooting at 'center mass' to be a way to extinguish an injured animal? :(
 

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Earlier this week I was glancing through some threads and one caught my eye, a strange one in fact where the OP was seeking help about shooting a snub nose J-Frame, yet curiously, in my opinion, was dismissive and rude to responding forum member's input, a very odd way to acquire help, but so be it, style is everything I suppose. That being what it is, it got me to thinking about how well I could at one time in my life shoot very accurately with one (a snubbie). I won't repeat the long story, but when my son was young and we'd be out shooting in the desert, he never caught on to my advice that shooting at fixed targets and trying to improve your aim was better than trying to hit golf balls thrown in the air with a blasting Beretta 92F! When he went into the police academy, he realized quickly how much he should have listened to me! Here are some old pictures when he was then a young cop and for some reason they were up at the shooting range and this is him shooting with his partners' gun, a 40 S&W caliber (my son was carrying a Glock 21 in 45 ACP back then). I reminded him when these pics were taken that at that distance, I could have and did deliver the same results with not a Smith and Wesson J-frame (because I didn't have one then), but with a Charter Arms Undercover! He's an even better shooter now because he knows how to shoot when receiving lead coming back his way, but still nods when I remind him of the 'old days'! :)

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Hey BC2,

Fine shooting by BC3!

"Practice intelligently." Col. Whelen

Stance. Grip. Focus. Pace.

My advice? Buy the best .22 "you" can afford. (of the "type" you are going to use. K-22 for six gunners. Ruger .22 for auto lovers)

Get several cases of .22 ammo.

Get Good instruction...preferably by SEVERAL Instructors. (viewpoints may "overlap" and a "weak point" missed by one instructor, may well be "picked up"/corrected by the 2nd Instructor.

DRY FIRE relentlessly. Daily if possible.

Watch a couple of Clint Smith vids...

STANCE. GRIP. FOCUS. PACE!!

Dry fire some more.

Practice your DRAW STROKE. Several thousand times, incorporating DRY FIRE.

Buy/make some "dummy rds/snap caps".

Practice your reloading skills.

Find a shooting buddy. HELP each other improve!

Later, Mark
 

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If you are ever in that situation with cattle or a horse imagine a vertical line down the middle of the head and a horizontal line 1 inch above the eyes. Shoot where the lines cross and it's an instant death 99% of the time.
The beef processor that does our meat comes to the ranch and kills them on site. He uses a 22 short in a single shot rifle from 10-15 feet. They are dead before their nose hits the ground.

Sent from my LG-H700 using Tapatalk
Hey Murph,

Amazing how many folk are "unaware" of basic anatomy.

A point you make ..........is they "fall back" to their training when "stressed" (usually a "good thing").

Unfortunately, not every "play" is from the "book".

Later, Mark
 

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If you are ever in that situation with cattle or a horse imagine a vertical line down the middle of the head and a horizontal line 1 inch above the eyes. Shoot where the lines cross and it's an instant death 99% of the time.
Who with an IQ above 75 would not know that...you would THINK? But I personally observed that two "trained police officers," not County Mounties, mind you, but State Troopers (one in Texas, the other NY), supposedly the elite of LE, obviously did not! Mind blowing, don't you think?
 

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...what can possibly be the low IQ/Common Sense quotient for anyone to think shooting at 'center mass' to be a way to extinguish an injured animal? :(
Nothing, zero--only sheer stupidity (if not sadism) can account for it. Rather alarming, I think, to remember that the same individuals are legally permitted to employ "lethal force" at their discretion...if they "feel threatened."
 

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A point you make ..........is they "fall back" to their training when "stressed" (usually a "good thing").
What would be "stressful" to a supposedly trained police officer about putting a badly wounded animal, laying inert on the ground, out of its misery? I don't mean that observing the suffering of the animal isn't stressful, if you have an ounce of compassion, but that's the kind of stress that should focus your mind like a laser, if you have any degree of competence & self-control. I've unfortunately had to do it several times without the "professional training," & it's one of those sad & unpleasant jobs that, the more you hate to do it, the more critical it is to do it right the first time.
 

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What would be "stressful" to a supposedly trained police officer about putting a badly wounded animal, laying inert on the ground, out of its misery? I don't mean that observing the suffering of the animal isn't stressful, if you have an ounce of compassion, but that's the kind of stress that should focus your mind like a laser, if you have any degree of competence & self-control. I've unfortunately had to do it several times without the "professional training," & it's one of those sad & unpleasant jobs that, the more you hate to do it, the more critical it is to do it right the first time.
People in this country are naive to killing and shedding blood. People or animals. Even “highly trained” police.
My BIL and myself have discussed this at length. If the moral, religious, and social restraints were removed from either of us, killing would be an easy thing to do.
The trigger is pulled because of training and a threat being present. Police do it from training, not willingly hopefully.
Forgive the thread drift. We can teach almost anyone to shoot decently but we don’t teach our people to kill.
In the Muslim faith, many teach their children from an early age to kill the infidel. The social and religious restraints about killing are not present, instead the promotion of killing exists.
What I’m saying is I can see a good hearted man not knowing the mercy kill is done in the brain pan or the rear base of the skull.
 
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