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Discussion Starter #1
Guns in the 21st century.

The Blue books says its worth 450.00 ,means its worth 275.00 " the blue book doesnt write checks"

Rare and Model 36 in the same sentence means,, nothing.
LNIB Means USED.
As new in the box means used.
Possibly unfired means used.
Looks unfired means used.
Looks new but I am listing it used because I am not the original owner,, means used.
99% like new,, means used.
New in the Box but as is,, means buyer beware.
All returns are will based on a case by case basis, means you have no case.
The recoil pad looks original to me,, means the length of pull is 12 3/4 and just right for a 9 year old boy scout.

I cant make it out, but its definately not rust,, means pitting exist somewhere on this fine item.

I cant give an inspection on this gun because the gun is in an estate,, means the owner is alive and kicking and doesnt want this thing back, NO WAY, No how. thats just the best he could think up on short notice.

I'm sorry We cant combine shipping on your three seperate Ebay purchases means,, you should have ask about combining shipping before the auctions were over so you could have recieved an email from the seller email stating, yes we would be glad to combine shipping for you. As always we appreciate your business.

When the add says this sig 220 is on the C&R list,, means the novice seller is definately on the crack pipe.

I am sure the grips are original , means your gettings Pacs,, or Hogues if your lucky.

I will make it up to you on the next deal, means dont get involved in the next deal.

I just barley used a small amount of flitz on one small area I was real easy with it,, means the 50 year old surviving case color has been removed indefinately from the once vivid case colored hammer and trigger. " Man look at that shine"

It has a dark line in the forearm but its definately not a crack, means the forearm is definately cracked.

If this Python doesnt sell this go around its going back deep in the safe,, means instant relist with modest price reduction.

I am no gun expert I am just selling this old Browning A5 for my neighbor, he bought it new in 1956,, means the gun is loudly stamped made in Japan and has a Gander Mountain price tag still hanging on the trigger guard from July 2003.

New in the box but the box may not be the original box means,, the original box was probably toss at birth. About 99.725% of the time this is accurate.

I cant swear to it but the gun looks all original,, means poor amature reblue and the smell of Birchwood-Casey in the air.

I have the original box somewhere but I cant put my hands on it just this minute, but if when I find it I will send it to you,, means if you believe this your probably living in a box or need to be.

The gun has microscopic marks so tiny my camera wont pick them up,, means the gun has been run over by a mack truck.


On a serious note,, I have bought lots of nice guns from lots of honest people on the internet. I have had my share of bought lessons as well. I am a fan of the three day inspection, I offer and honor it. No BS, thats just how I think it should be. You spend your hard earned money you should get a product you are happy with. I appreciate an inspection period when I buy a gun just as everyone else. AS IS sellers hurt the internet business,, I will argue this to the end. When a first time buyer gets burned for the first time on the internet,, hes a long gone daddy and we all have lost a cyber customer forever. There is enough doubt in internet gun sales without any extra help. When a seller will not give you a three day inspection you my friend are gambling,, plain and simple gambling. If I wanted to gamble I would to be in Vegas with 300 hundred on the pass line trying to make a hard four yelling little joe, drinking Crown and watching the pretty girls ,,,not at home in my Sponge Bob boxer shorts on my laptop trying to nail down a used model 66 off the classified section while watching reruns of Iron Sides on cable at 4 a.m. But thats just me.

,, the three day inspection was created on the eight day.

John Fugate American Gun Collector
 

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This is why I don't buy "collector grade" guns off the internet. I once purchased a model 19 2.5" because I was bidding on and won a 64 that did not exist anymore(double listing, 64 was already sold). The seller contacted me and told me I could have a 19 for the same price I bid on the 64. I agreed and he sent me pics of it, one nickel and one blue. He said it was blue, now but had been nickeled before. When I got the gun it was missing side plate screws and it had been originally a nickel gun that was blued and then nickeled and then blued again. I replaced the screws and then a friend of mine refinished it in a teflon-moly mil-spec gray that looked good. All I wanted was the 4" unfired 64 to begin with.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Jamn,

That is misfortunate. One bad deal has ruined you for life and this could have been avoided if the seller had just been honest. You would still be buying internet guns and he would still be internet selling guns. There are lots of good honest dealers out there like David Carroll who you can trust when you want to buy a nice collectable Smith and Wesson. Dont give up,, just regroup and buy from a reputable source. Check out Davids website,, first class guns and a first class guy.


John
 

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Excellent post, John. Especially the first line!! I bought a Colt DS from you several years ago and was delighted with the price and the way the deal went. The condition of the gun was exactly as listed (maybe even better). Keep up the good work.
Charlie
 

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John,

I too have bought from you with no problems and no BS.
In the past I have been disappointed with a couple of internet deals with others and as a result learned to slow down and ask more questions.
When I make a purchase now, I sit down and make a list of questions and insist on good quality pictures and when possible look at the sellers reputation.

Chuck
 

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John,
Thanks for an excellent post. kfjdrfirii
At first I started to chuckle over all the cliche`s and 'wish it were so' expressions, then I got to thinking...
So many folks who are new to the hobby ASSUME that everybody out there is honest and forthright.
That's where the problem lies.
Common sense, experience and knowledge will serve a buyer well indeed.
Unless and until a buyer has all of the above, stick with a reputable known seller!
;)
Don
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I appreciate the nice comments. I have just become frustrated with several buying deals I have made in the last few months on the internet. I have found that in the last year with gun prices through the roof some people are prone to fudge a little on condition because of the serious difference it can make in the retail price of a gun. Example a gun graded 99% could easily commend a 50 % premium over a gun graded 97% in condition . As we know a few percentage points when grading a gun can change the price drastically with the stroke of the keyboard. Its no secret I buy and sell nice guns on a daily basis, I make a profit but not at the expense of misleading my customers. I call a spade a spade,,, for example if a gun has a whisper of muzzel wear I mention it or picture it in my add. I am human and can make mistakes but I pride myself on grading guns to a degree my customers will be happy when they open their new package. When I sell a gun I intend to sell piece of mind as well. Whats worse than opening your new purchase to be surprised with undisclosed bumps and bruises. I will pay more for a gun time to time from reputable dealers for piece of mind. I personally collect Pre War new in the box Colts and Smiths. I want the truth about a gun when I send off my money. Details are important. I realize the dealer I am buying a gun from may have drove to 50 gunshows and waded through the trenches to find that one particular gun I want or need for my collection. He has performed a exhausting time consuming service and he deserved to be compensated for his time,knowledge and efforts. Dealers find guns for my collection I could never find in a lifetime. This is why dealers get retail for nice guns,, they hunt this stuff down and its an expensive hunt, booth rent, gas, hotel bills wear and tear on a vehicle, insurance ect and TIME. Plus reputable dealers give an inspection period to insure total satisfaction to the consumer who does not have the time and means to go through all of this coast to coast hunting just to find that one particular gun. Good guns are expensive simply because they are worth it. For every 10 guns I buy on the internet 8 will be as described and 2 will be grossly misrepresented. Sometimes I get my money back on the two and sometimes I end up with a high priced boat anchors and a sad story. This is the downside of the gun business. I am the middle man and I get stuck in the middle alot. The sellers I buy guns from always get their money promptly and the buyer on the other end always get what they expect and a no hassel three day inspection. I have to deliver on both ends to sustain my livelyhood and I do. I make money on some guns and some guns I break even on and the guns I buy that were misrepresented to me,,, well I lose my aXX on those. Guns I buy that are substandard never make it to my website for resell. They are disposed of at wholesale prices to a wholesale market and sold for what they truley are. This is a daily grind I go through. This is a tough business,, people tend to only see the upside. I am just trying to give people a better understanding on the business though the eyes of an active internet gun dealer. My brother Matt and I sell a couple thousand guns a year, year after year and I know all of this information to be true first hand. I didnt read this out of a book and its not hear say. I live in this world 24/7. I am here for the long haul and plan to do this until I die. Its what I love and I want to preserve this industry and make it better for everyone. I have always lived by this old saying " You can sheer a sheep a little every month but you can only skin him one time. I am not here to skin anyone, but its no secret I do like to make money. Help keep up the good work and educate the novice buyers of today. They are the collectors of tomorrow. Gun collecting is something you have to love with your heart to understand it. It doesnt just click overnight. You cant fake it if your gonna make it , you got to live it. Participation is key,,,, Until you hold a 3.5 inch five screw pre 27 in your hands you will never understand why that
$ 19.95 gun book says "very desirable".

John
 

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John Fugate,
An excellent post, and very timely indeed.
Thank you for your insight.
teesur.
 

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All true, even down at the bottom where I feed. I like the guns you and Matt pass on, the dash numbered revos in the best condition I can afford.
I met Matt at the Louisville show and was impressed that he took the time to help a fellow at my buddies table with a question we couldn't answer.
Everybody is trying to spend their money on what is best represented by a seller to be exactly what they state it to be. At a price we agree on, or pass on.
I bought a 27-2 5 inch gun at NGD, good condition but a shooter N frame, the hammer had "push off" and had been turned down by every looker on set-up Friday. The guy was up front on what was wrong with the gun and I bought it at what I though was a fair price. I sent it back to S&W for repairs and even with the C-note that cost me to fix I have what has turned out to be my favorite 357.
My point is nobody has to lie to make a sale but you do have to be honest about WHAT you are selling. And be willing to price accordingly.
As any gunshow player knows, it doesn't take many bad deals to get a bad name. I think that some gunshow "rejects" (dealers AND guns) end up on the 'net.
2345ll
GGF
 

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Discussion Starter #11
GGF,

I am with you, many crooked sellers flee to the internet to get away from people face to face and run from their past. They are only kidding themselves, the internet is a small world and word gets around at 3G on here. I understand you buy a few revolvers of shooter quality and there is certainly nothing wrong with that, My market is best for high condition items, but I buy a few shooter grade guns for myself. My favorite gun is a 85% K22. I shoot these guns and collect as well. I personally do not mind a little character and patina on my shooters. Plus they are affordable and if you drop it in the mud you wipe it off and dont cry about it.

John
 

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Very insightful. Very true. Worthy of a response. Thanks! ihjf
f.t.
 

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John,

A very good thread.
I have bought and sold a few guns on the internet and with that experiance,
I do have a question for you...............

I allow a 3 day inspection period, BUT I state "NO FIRE, three day inspection period" now. I had a nice shotgun returned to me with spotty surface rust from what looked it had been in the rain and not wiped down after being shot.

Do you believe that the "no fire" is appropriate?

Thanks, John
 

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Discussion Starter #15
John,

I hope this helps,,, People use the term no fire inspection for a reason and lots of novice buyers do not pay attention to this critical element and do not understand why it’s NOT ok to try out their new purchase. The term “No fire” is a given in the collector firearm world and in the new gun world as well. Once a gun is fired it’s no longer unfired and is devalued to some degree plus now its considered used "provided it was unfired to begin with". You can easily devalue a collector gun 30-40% with one pull of the trigger. Everyone has their own opinion on how a three day inspection should work. This is my take on a three day inspection. When you send a gun to a person and He or She does not like the gun for any reason once in their hands they should have the opportunity to receive a full refund "without a hassle or having to plead their case. I feel the consumer should be 100% happy with their purchase and if not the deals gets reversed no matter how much or how little money is involved 200 dollars or $30,000 its all the same. With this being said the buyer must return the gun to the seller and the gun must be in the 100% exact same condition as it was when the seller initially sent the gun to the buyer. No exceptions, No exceptions, Did I say no exceptions! The funds should be in the mail back to the buyer within 24 hours,, No BS restocking fees, no waiting and no confusion. I personally send certified funds in this event,, who wants a personal check for a refund. The seller needs good pictures and documentation of the guns condition prior to ever mailing the gun out in the first place in the event the gun is rejected by the buyer. This is for the sellers own protection if a gun is returned back to the seller with new issues that were not present when the gun was first sent out. In this case the seller should not and does not have to honor the return. This is basically common sense and I can see this no other way. You don’t tear the fender off a new Cadillac and expect to get your money back,, just because it’s been 3 hours since you bought it. Take pictures of what you sell,,You as a seller are planning a defense against a fraudulent buyer defacing the product this is “self preservation”. The new buyer cannot tear up or deface the gun and then expect to exercise the inspection period. That does not fly NO WAY, NO HOW. I operate in this manner, I always honor three day inspection provided the gun is returned in the same condition as it left my shop. You can return the gun for any reason, if the customer is not happy I’m not happy. In the event I have made an error on my part describing the item, I return shipping fees. On the other hand if the buyer is returning the gun because he simply just does not like it or his wife says honey you spent too much money, I then return the purchase price but do not return shipping. The best way to avoid a return is under promise and over deliver. This makes for a great transaction and a repeat customer, If a gun has a scratch on the grip or a freckle on the cylinder,, tell it in your add. What may be small to you may be huge to someone else. Protect yourself, give detailed honest descriptions and do your best to deliver an excellent product in a timely manner. This will make you money and keep you in business. It works for me.

John Fugate
 
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