Smith And Wesson Forums banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I could use a little help identifying What I believe are Belgian Proof Marks on a S&W Model 19. Thanks to help in another forum I believe I have part of the history of this gun, but not all. I believe that the proof house and the year can be identified from the proof marks, but I would like to confirm that, because it will help to identify the revolver properly.

When acquired the gun, I knew it was, re-imported to the US from Europe fairly recently, but was not sure if it had been modified while there. Here is what I know so far:
  • S&W Model 19-P
  • Fixed sights
  • Slotted, painted front ramp sight (this is what threw me a curve but apparently factory)
  • WISCHO mark on barrel (I know this is or was an importer based in Erlangen, Germany)
  • S/N AWF17xx (according to the SCSW 4 this dates it to ~1987)

After some help I found a note in the SCSW book that mentions a Model-P, and confirms the approx year. Apparently an overrun of a special order, shipped to Europe. Proof marks are NOT German as I first thought, no sign of an Eagle over N or German house marks.

What I still need help with:
  • What looks like a crown over a cursive L in an oval, may be a Belgian mark for foreign firearms. Same mark on bottom of barrel, frame in front of trigger guard, and rear face of cylinder (almost invisible)
  • P over bar on bottom of barrel, a date code (?)
  • Star over a letter on barrel (??)


Shoe Gadget Headgear Wood Cable
Automotive tire Rectangle Drinkware Drink Material property
Automotive design Font Rim Gadget Personal luxury car
Automotive tire Rim Gas Liquid Automotive wheel system
Watch Audio equipment Gas Automotive lighting Electric blue
 

· Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes, and no. You may have seen my other thread in the other forum, as well as my previous one, so you probably know why try to get someone to confirm my not-so-educated guesses about dates and places, LOL.

Pete
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
23,168 Posts
I haven't seen your other posts. If it was on the Blue Forum and they couldn't help you, I doubt I can. I found this more extensive reference to proof marks: Proof marks | BOBP Application.

I'm no expert but it appears that your last picture of the flame over L is the Belgian standard proof for foreign made guns. The other marks, I can't decipher them.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11,104 Posts
The Dunlops have to go mate...

thewelshm
 
  • Like
Reactions: TTSH

· Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The Dunlops have to go mate...

thewelshm
LOL. That was my thought too, even before I got my hands on it. Funny though, found out in the meantime those were actually the rubber grips the 19-P overrun guns shipped to Europe with... I'm always open to suggestions, is this any better? I have a set of 1980's Target grips I could put on, but these are more streamilined and seem to look better on a 4" gun with fixed sights.

501906
 

· Registered
Joined
·
12,063 Posts
Hey Pete,

Welcome to S&W!

Swell looking revolver!!

Later, Mark
 

· Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
A model 19 made for the foreign market.(y) I like it and would like to find one.
I am getting there, slowly.

It is one of a special order with fixed-sights for the Peruvian Police, made in 1987. About 3000 were made, only about half were shipped to Peru before the order was cancelled. Most of the rest went to Europe, some stayed in the US. The European distributor was Wischo, so that explains that mark. This one was imported to Europe via Liege, Belgium, and has the Belgian proof mark for foreign firearms, L in a circle with the flame (or crown). The pic below came from another thread in this forum.

The "P" is a Belgian date code for the year it arrived in Europe, 1988.

Still working on the rest.

Organism Font Pattern Symbol Circle
 

· Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
I am getting there, slowly.

It is one of a special order with fixed-sights for the Peruvian Police, made in 1987. About 3000 were made, only about half were shipped to Peru before the order was cancelled. Most of the rest went to Europe, some stayed in the US. The European distributor was Wischo, so that explains that mark. This one was imported to Europe via Liege, Belgium, and has the Belgian proof mark for foreign firearms, L in a circle with the flame (or crown). The pic below came from another thread in this forum.

The "P" is a Belgian date code for the year it arrived in Europe, 1988.

Still working on the rest.

View attachment 502008
All you stated is perfect. Even this is a very old post, I can add that the Y under a star indicates the name of the inspector, in this case was Mr François Delsaux
 

· Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
All you stated is perfect. Even this is a very old post, I can add that the Y under a star indicates the name of the inspector, in this case was Mr François Delsaux
Thank you! Old or not, I have an interest in proof marks on guns that were exported, and then re-imported to the US, and this particular one is especially interesting (and not just because I bought it before I knew what the -P stood for, LOL).

They show up on Gunbroker every few months. This one, and another one I saw hi-def pics of, show some signs that they were carried in a holster. I mean not just muzzle wear. That is pretty odd for a revolver in Europe. Most guns that were legally carried in holsters in Europe at the time were not revolvers.

So, not a club gun, not a target pistol (no adjustable sight), not a backup gun (too big). Guesses, anyone?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,206 Posts
All CIP countries respect reciprocity. It appears that during this era all European bound S&W exports went through Belgium. That is indeed the Belgian nitro proof for imported weapons. At least into the early 1980's American guns retailed through the Rod & Gun Club system were proofed in Ulm or Munich.

I cannot say when or if sales to service members overseas ended. In my day quite a few German citizens owned and shot American revolvers. I am assuming a number of these are now coming back due to later restrictions.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
18,075 Posts
The same seller on Gunbroker has had 3 models 27 with 3,5 inch barrels offered for sale that all had European proof marks. I thought that was interesting
 

· Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Some GB sellers seem to specialize in bringing guns back from Europe. One is a constant fixture on GB, but there are several others. For anyone looking for a shooter grade gun in good~VG condition, the proof stamps don't matter. A 3.5" Model 27 is a cool gun, regardless of the stamps, IMO.

The prices are usually reasonable, since condition collectors don't care for them. Personally I find the stories behind the stamps interesting, just like some people who like LE department stamps.

I did not know anything about the -P model until I saw it for sale. It seems to rate only a line or two in the SCSW book.

If your aim isn't to make a profit when you sell, there is actually a lot of cool stuff on the market today.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
47 Posts
I'll have to break out my 9mm Target Champion . I know it was exported and then made it back here . I was told it has German proof marks but I'm going to do some homework on it now after reading this post . Being a member of the other place and a member of the S&WCA and S&WHF , I'm going to throw this out here . You might want to think about getting a letter on your m19 . If you ever go to get rid of it , it wouldn't hurt to have a letter showing the history of it's travels .
 

· Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
...I'm going to throw this out here . You might want to think about getting a letter on your m19 . If you ever go to get rid of it, it wouldn't hurt to have a letter showing the history of it's travels.
You are probably right. I don't think it would tell me where it went after the distributor in Europe, but it might increase the resale value. Or not, because it is a fairly late model.

Similar to Victory Models. The factory letter would tell you where they shipped before they were issued, but not what the Army and Navy did with them afterwards. If they ended up with the police in the US or Brit sector, only the stamp of the police department in Europe can tell us that (IF you are lucky).
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,206 Posts
After some head scratching and recollection, I remembered the -P. My SCSW 3rd Ed. page 187 attributed this unique fixed sight Model 19 with AWF prefix to Peru in 1987. I can not speculate further, as to the proofs.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
After some head scratching and recollection, I remembered the -P. My SCSW 3rd Ed. page 187 attributed this unique fixed sight Model 19 with AWF prefix to Peru in 1987. I can not speculate further, as to the proofs.
Correct. It is on page 219 in SCSW 4th edition. The 4th edition also mentions a 2-1/2" version, but I have not seen one for sale, or heard of anyone having one. If you DO have one, it is probably rare, at least in the US. The 4" version is more common, both in the US and in Europe, but overall only about 3000 were made, including the ones shipped to Peru, and the overrun shipped to Europe.

We now have the meaning of all the proof marks and stamps. The meaning of the "Y" was the last bit I did not know.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top