Smith And Wesson Forums banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
898 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I know many of you here have this gun and are happy with it....but i just wanted to give you this info in case you have similar problems....this e-mail was sent all LASD personnel from the range staff....

Quality of Smith & Wesson 9mm M&P pistols has become a concern because of a recent barrel failure on an in-service deputy’s pistol, coupled with additional extraction jams on deputy recruit pistols (46% of recruit class experiencing some degree of malfunctions – mostly phase-2 jam failures to extract spent casings).

A JDIC announcment canceling the authorization of Smith & Wesson 9mm M&P semi-automatic pistol models follows.

Please brief your personnel.

SHERIFFS DEPARTMENT BROADCAST ANNOUNCEMENT

TRAINING BUREAU WEAPONS TRAINING

TO: ALL SWORN PERSONNEL



SUBJECT: OFFICER SAFETY ALERT - SMITH & WESSON M&P PISTOLS

RECENT DEVELOPMENTS HAVE FORCED A DEPARTMENTAL RE-EVALUATION OF THE SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL AS AN AUTHORIZED OPTIONAL HANDGUN FOR SWORN PERSONNEL.

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P FULL SIZE PISTOL IS NO LONGER AN AUTHORIZED OPTIONAL ON-DUTY PISTOL.

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P COMPACT PISTOL IS NO LONGER AN AUTHORIZED OPTIONAL OFF-DUTY PISTOL.

SINCE FIRST APPROVAL AS AN OPTIONAL PISTOL ON DECEMBER 10, 2008, THE FULL-SIZED AND/OR COMPACT VERSIONS OF THE 9MM SMITH & WESSON M&P PISTOL HAVE BEEN DEPLOYED BY 49 SWORN PERSONNEL ON AND OFF DUTY. ONE OF THESE PISTOLS WAS DELIVERED NEW WITH AN IMPROPERLY MACHINED BARREL THAT WOULD NOT EJECT SPENT CARTRIDGE CASINGS. ANOTHER OF THESE PISTOLS EXPERIENCED A BARREL FAILURE IN MID-APRIL OF THIS YEAR. AFTER FIRING LESS THAN 10,000 ROUNDS OF TRAINING AMMUNITION. THIS PISTOL BARREL BROKE INTO TWO PIECES JUST AHEAD OF THE FIRING CHAMBER.

ADDITIONALLY, A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF DEPUTY ACADEMY CLASS #377 RECRUITS WITH ISSUED NEW SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P FULL-SIZE PISTOLS HAVE EXPERIENCED PHASE-2 PISTOL MALFUNCTIONS, CAUSED BY SPENT CASINGS FAILING TO EXTRACT FROM BARREL CHAMBERS, DURING THE PAST TWO WEEKS OF TRAINING. CLASS #377 RECRUITS WILL BE ISSUED BERETTA 92FS PISTOLS ON WEDNESDAY APRIL 29, 2009, AND THEIR M&P PISTOLS REMOVED FROM SERVICE.

PERSONNEL SAFETY AND RELIABLE EQUIPMENT REMAIN OUR PRIMARY CONCERNS.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Well that stinks. I hate to hear that and hopefully no one is hurt or injured because of these quality issues. I wonder if these M&P9's are all from a batch made specifically for the sheriff's office. I've noticed a trend over the years with law enforcement agencies. Certain depts have placed large orders for S&W pistols if, S&W makes changes to the original design. When the changes are made the guns begin to fail and S&W gets blamed for a bad design or poor quality control. Before I blame the gun I would like to hear S&W's response to this problem. I've had an M&P40 since they were introduced and it runs flawlessly. Numerous other agencies have had the M&P in service for a year or more and this is the first we've heard of a possible significant issue with the gun. Being in law enforcement for over 16 years, I like to hear both sides of the story before I make a decision. I would not hesitate to buy an M&P9 today if I wanted one. I believe in it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
This sounds strange to me... we have six M&P pistols of various types... and all have been absolutely reliable.

I suppose it is possible a sub contractor provided a defective part or material... or even a dis-gruntled employee at S&W not doing their job right (I suppose that means that all the other employees are "gruntled? ;) )

Anyway, I'm sure S&W will address this pronto...

There sure needs to be a sense of proportion here... the LASD is still driving Ford Crown Victorias that they claim are killer cars in a rear end crash... yet reacting so widly to a couple of easily fixed problems...

I note one of the complaints involved a failure of a gun around 10,000 rounds... which is quite a few... guns are after all machines which require maintenance and parts replacement from time to time...

Beretta had the "slide sandwich problem" with their 92 model too... much more serious IMHO.

I recall a few years ago a department sent out a message about their Glocks going kB! But turned out there was some political agenda going on... I suspect there is more to this than we see here... Time will tell the rest of the story...

In any case it sure does not make me less confident with my M&Ps.

Chuck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Just a quick follow-up here. I just got off the phone with S&W's customer service to check on a back ordered product and asked him about the LASD M&P9 problems. He said that customer service has not been made aware of any problems and, with a large contract like the LASD, if something had happened they would have been made aware of it right away. He said he doesn't believe it. Until I see a release from S&W I think I'm with him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
898 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I am just relaying our departments problem's with the guns they received....in initial testing, they passed the muster....whether or not S&W issues a press release is irrelevant....why would they anyway unless it was a total recall? That wouldn't be good for business if one of the largest depts. in the nation de-authorized one of your guns....


BTW, we don't have a contract with S&W, only Berretta....any deps who want to carry it have to buy their own...which as of now is a fairly small number...49 total.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,759 Posts
Every manufacturer has occassional problems with what would normally be a premium product.

In the early 90's we had 12 of our 225 Beretta 92FS training guns break their locking blocks during academy classes.

It' didn't take a metalurgical engineer to see the metalic grains in the fractures showing they were cast verses forged parts.

Beretta's response (without written explaination or comment) was to send me a zip lock bag containing two dozen forged locking blocks.

After that we did not have any more problems. Sixteen years later were're on our thrid batch of 92FS's with nary a problem.

I suspect S&W will "Un-F**k" their problem in due course too. fLPIGNOk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Hi sipowicz, I wasn't aware that you are with the LASD. That makes me take back any doubt in your previous posts. When it comes straight from the source that holds alot more weight, I was under the impression you were just passing along info you had read or had sent to you. No offense intended. I hope you guys out there get everything straightened out quickly although I guess that nothing happens quickly in law enforcement as far as that stuff goes huh? I worked for the largest sheriff's office in NE (135 sworn officers, 350 employees total) for 14 years and I always wondered about really large depts like yours and in So.California to boot. I can't imagine how busy you guys probably are and the kind of calls you guys get. We primarily dealt with petty property crime and maybe a homicide every 3-5 years. Omaha Police Dept has 850 sworn ofc. and they have a more diverse population to deal with and alot more violent crime with 1-3 homicides a week and gang problems. I would love to chat with you some time and swap some stories. Keep us updated with what's happening with your M&Ps and what you guys find out as far as what's the problem and what S&W is doing to fix the problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
898 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Thanks Murph....I am a reserve with the LASD and I run the mobile range...as I said, I really liked the gun after trying it and was going to replace my Beretta at some point, but now I can't...the main reason I passed this along was in case anyone else was experiencing these kinds of malfunctions it would let help them decide what to do... :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
73 Posts
The pin holding the trigger housing in my Glock 22 backed out while I was qualifying. I didn't notice it until I tried to re-holster. The armorer wanted to replace just the pin. I made him replace the pin and the trigger housing. No problems since. I've got four M&P's and have not had any problems with anyof them. I've qualified with all of them and frequently carry them off duty. We're issued the Glock 22 but if I had my choice I'd carry the M&P 40. I've never seen a trouble free model of any brand. A good company corrects the problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Hey Sipowicz, has anything else been happening with the M&P's? I suppose if they've all been taken out of service then no but, have you heard anything about what is being done to find out what is causing the problem and what is being done to fix it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
898 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Can't say for sure...but most people think it's ammo related...we use winclean for target and it's pretty weak stuff....I've seen lots of malfunctions with the legendary USP .45 and I know for sure that is ammo related since our Federal white box .45 is also pretty weak. If you are thinking of picking up an M&P, I wouldn't let our problems with it stop you....most people on the net only have good things to say about them...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
429 Posts
Sip,

I have used the WinClean a couple of times in .40 180 gr. in my M&P 40C. I have checked the bullistics and they seem to be at/near the top of the charts for velocity & energy. Not sure if that is the case for 9mm.

So, I wouldn't call them .40s weak, but I'm sure you have more experience and knowledge than me.

MOONDAWG,
I'm not going to knock them for being "Green or clean" for the shooter, since less lead inhaled or ingested is a plus. Just my opinion.

BTW, I do love my M&P, have had zero problems. Of course I've only shot a couple hundered rounds thru it.

Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Hey sipowicz, anymore news on the problem your dept. has had with the M&P? I've been on another non-S&W specific forum and there have been a few complaints of the M&P Pro having FTE's. It's only a few doing all the complaining with most post's praising the M&P. No one was complaining about the 4" models or compacts, just the Pro series. Just curious and I imagine with how slowly the wheels turn in most dept's, it's just been put on the back burner. Take care.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
898 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I haven't heard anything new but again, I would not hestitate to buy one...Smith stands behind their products and if you had any problems, you can just sen it back... guess when you deal with a police dept. and large numbers of autos, other things factor in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,759 Posts
I have a differing opinion of using "Winclean" or anything other than "duty rounds" to qualify with.

As far back as the mid 1970's our legal department suggested that we "NOT" qualify with target wadcutters (de rigur) but use only full power duty rounds for a number of reasons...one of which was that's the round we'd use on the street WTSHTF, and two it's more defendable in court should the shooting evolve into a civil suit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
898 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Well La de da...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
898 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Don't worry Dave, we're friends...he knows I'm joking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
429 Posts
MOONDAWG,

In my early years of revolver ownership I used semi-wadcutters for practice. Then I started using semi-jacketed soft points that I wanted to use for hunting. I found I could not use the same sight set up for the different rounds to hit bullseye. So I started to use my hunting rounds for all shooting.

I would think it is similar for LE. You should do critial/aimpoint shooting with service rounds. You can still practice with wadcutters as long as accuracy is not part of the prcatice criteria, if your practicing tactical moves, etc.

As far as the WinClean in my M&P 40c, I started using them when my indoor range started selling them for range use. I like the concept for less lead in the shooting environment. I don't know it's bullet performance as far as penetration and mushrooming as compared to FMJs. I would assume that the jacket on the WinClean will peel away quickly on impact to heavy medium. Where the FMJ would penetrate more intact.

Would be nice to have some data on that.

Dave
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top