[infamous.jas]

Hello friends. I am a Veteran who enjoys learning the new hobby of 19th century Antique guns, particularly the S&W First Model Double Action in 44-40. I currently own a Hopkins & Allen Folding Hammer in 38 s&w. Hopefully the pics load below. I also just sent out a Pietta 1860 Army Snub to Kirst to have the Konvertor professionally installed and the timing done right. Very soon I am going to purchase the S&W First Model Double Action in 44-40 with complete restoration on the menu and have been learning all I can. Awesome gun! My plans are to have it cut down to a 2 inch barrel and a few other mods. Any input and support from the community will be greatly appreciated. Thanks everybody!

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! That's a nice looking H&A. We don't see them often here. As far as the .44-40 DA, I believe you want the .44 Double Action Frontier, not the 1st Model which was primarily chambered for .44 Russian. The Frontier is getting harder to find in decent condition and therefore is getting pricey. With all the work you plan to do, a beater might be your best bet to keep the project at reasonable cost. Are you planning to do the work yourself or have it done? If the latter and you don't know a good gunsmith, someone may have suggestions for you.

 

[infamous.jas]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! That's a nice looking H&A. We don't see them often here. As far as the .44-40 DA, I believe you want the .44 Double Action Frontier, not the 1st Model which was primarily chambered for .44 Russian. The Frontier is getting harder to find in decent condition and therefore is getting pricey. With all the work you plan to do, a beater might be your best bet to keep the project at reasonable cost. Are you planning to do the work yourself or have it done? If the latter and you don't know a good gunsmith, someone may have suggestions for you.

This is great information! Thank you, I appreciate the knowledge. Yes, the "Frontier" model it is then. My concern with purchasing a beater the gun is if the metal has alot of pitting and the gun is loose, can the gun be rebuilt into as strong or stronger than the original, that is dependable for edc scenarios. I do plan to have the barrel cut down to 2" with ports and a 5 slot picatinny rail incorporated just ahead of the top-break latch (I'm probably saying it wrong = )) and a different front sight. Yes, I am trying to be as cost effective as possible but not at the sacrifice of longevity and dependability. This one is $1750 but it's kind of rough, or is it?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Well, it is certainly resurrectable. But, I'm curious why you picked this particular top break? I believe the double action pull is heavy and can't really be improved. As far as longevity and durability goes, a modern target model hand ejector would be a much better platform especially for a Picatinny rail. If something in the action breaks, it will have to be fabricated or you'll spend a lot of time scrounging for parts. Not to mention that, with the mods you plan, any collector value will be destroyed. The Frontier you show above will lose half its value if the finish is redone. I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer but I'm curious.

 

[infamous.jas]

Well, it is certainly resurrectable. But, I'm curious why you picked this particular top break? I believe the double action pull is heavy and can't really be improved. As far as longevity and durability goes, a modern target model hand ejector would be a much better platform especially for a Picatinny rail. If something in the action breaks, it will have to be fabricated or you'll spend a lot of time scrounging for parts. Not to mention that, with the mods you plan, any collector value will be destroyed. The Frontier you show above will lose half its value if the finish is redone. I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer but I'm curious.

I understand and the guns appeal is its the most appealing 19th century platform to work with. I will eventually "invest" in guns that hold value, but this will be one of many hobby tools that are used and maintained when any repairs might be needed. Were not talking about an 1877 Colt double action, but I don't run across many run down First Model Double Action models for sale, all seem in reasonable condition as far as bore and cylinder tightness, but hey, I'm a sorta newbie to this but somewhat informed as I've been doing LOTS of research. Remember - For certain people 19th century antiques or other less lethal methods might be their only means of home or self defense. This is the perfect platform, with the a Safety Hammerless 1 1/2 barrel with a short bike grip being about the best platform for "effective" conceal carry (if that is a option).

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Got cha! You're in CA, right? I would think a Nevada or Arizona gun show might be productive for you. All these DA's frames were made before 1899 so they are all antiques per BATFE. Don't really know what CA restrictions are, though. Good hunting!

 

[gunhacker]

Got cha! You're in CA, right? I would think a Nevada or Arizona gun show might be productive for you. All these DA's frames were made before 1899 so they are all antiques per BATFE. Don't really know what CA restrictions are, though. Good hunting!

CA follows most, but not all Federal definitions... learned that the hard way when I got my C&R FFL and discovered that the regulation regarding how old a firearm needs to be when being classified as a "Relic" is different. The Feds define it as 50 years or older, CA defines it as being over 50 years.

But having said that... they are the same criteria when it comes to the definition of an antique firearm. A problem that I've run into quite often at out of state gun shops and shows, is they often will flat out refuse to deal with someone from California due tour complex laws. Very frustrating, as despite having an FFL and the required CA COE (Certificate of Eligibility), and can legally transact out of state C&R firearm transactions, they don't want to "take a chance" of violating some not so obvious technicality in our gun laws.

Can't say that I blame them, but it's a pisser nonetheless.

BTW infamous.jas, welcome to the forum from a fellow Californian (NorCal).

 

[infamous.jas]

CA follows most, but not all Federal definitions... learned that the hard way when I got my C&R FFL and discovered that the regulation regarding how old a firearm needs to be when being classified as a "Relic" is different. The Feds define it as 50 years or older, CA defines it as being over 50 years.

But having said that... they are the same criteria when it comes to the definition of an antique firearm. A problem that I've run into quite often at out of state gun shops and shows, is they often will flat out refuse to deal with someone from California due tour complex laws. Very frustrating, as despite having an FFL and the required CA COE (certificate of Eligibility), and can legally transact out of state C&R firearm transactions, they don't want to be bothered.

BTW infamous.jas, welcome to the forum from a fellow Californian (NorCal).

Manufacturing before 1899 allows guns to be ship right to my doorstep in San Francisco, CA. Having said that I can't legally conceal carry. Ammunition can no longer be shipped to your door in California, and Yes there are a sprinkle of businesses on the internet and private sellers who want to avoid the hassle and just avoid it. Ammunition can be put together or legally purchased in person in Reno or Medford. If you find that rare cowboy load you heard about online and you live in California you have to order it and have it sent to an address out of state. UPS plays nice with guns and ammo. SO PEOPLE WHO CAN'T OWN FIREARMS CAN OWN "GUNS MADE BEFORE 1899" I GET MINE SHIPPED RIGHT TO MY FRONT DOOR * NO FFL REQUIRED *

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Man, I hate the hoops y'all have to jump through to exercise your constitutional rights. I'm glad I live in a free state...

 

[infamous.jas]

Man, I hate the hoops y'all have to jump through to exercise your constitutional rights. I'm glad I live in a free state...

I feel the same way, and is why I'm relocating very soon.

 

[WendyZXZ]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[infamous.jas]

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you very much.

 

[infamous.jas]

Well, it is certainly resurrectable. But, I'm curious why you picked this particular top break? I believe the double action pull is heavy and can't really be improved. As far as longevity and durability goes, a modern target model hand ejector would be a much better platform especially for a Picatinny rail. If something in the action breaks, it will have to be fabricated or you'll spend a lot of time scrounging for parts. Not to mention that, with the mods you plan, any collector value will be destroyed. The Frontier you show above will lose half its value if the finish is redone. I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer but I'm curious.

I'm looking at many other options. Is this outside the scope of a quality gun to restore or is this a good candidate? The barrel and body chips concern me along with it being a little loose. I'd rather buy a tight gun for $500 more but if this is something commonly fixed in a restoration then I'll grab it.

 

[snakedoctor]

Welcome

 

[infamous.jas]

Welcome

Right on. Thank you. Have any answers about the condition issue?

 

[jimg11]

Hi infamous.jas,


A warm welcome to the forum.


Visit often.

 

[infamous.jas]

Hi infamous.jas,


A warm welcome to the forum.


Visit often.

Will do. I am really enjoying the search for my new hobby of 19th century "guns". Thank you.

 

[41 Charlie]

Welcome aboard from east Missouri!

 

[infamous.jas]

Welcome aboard from east Missouri!
View attachment 597913

Beautiful photo! I often watch videos on you tube of old video reedited for color and resolution, like "driving 40s Los Angeles. To see new old cars and such is almost unreal, but the videos are real. Now I want a milkshake = ). Thank you for the warm welcome.

 

[59dexta]

Good luck in your hunt. I'm a purist I find them and maintain them in the condition I find them. Only 2 large frame top breaks both single action. The model 3 target I've seen at gun show priced at $1800 the Russia is a basket case I paid $500 for I would expect the double actions of found would be in those price range. I've seen a few on gun broker but never had the fund to go after one. I have a colt lightning but would not recommend it for anything except a display piece. I like the colt single action army but cutting the barrel takes away the ejector rod. But they are simple to repair and find parts my 44-40 is about 1878 38-40 about 1900. The 45 is about 1874. The old Colts recommend black powder the large frame Smith and Wesson maybe the same i 'm not sure
Dan