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Discussion Starter #1
Yesterday and was in the local rag tonight courtesy of AP...

4 words from the man...

GET OVER IT AMERICA

Pretty covers my feelings as well....
 

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Yesterday and was in the local rag tonight courtesy of AP...

4 words from the man...

GET OVER IT AMERICA

Pretty covers my feelings as well....
Yeah, or lie on the floor kicking and screaming "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!"
And then cave in and put it on anyway when nobody will serve you or even let you in without it. ;)
 

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Well, a few years ago a formal study was performed during the Hajj in Saudi Arabia... About 7,500 people were randomly selected to participate, with a double blind study design.

Facemask versus No Facemask in Preventing Viral Respiratory Infections During Hajj: A Cluster Randomised Open Label Trial by Mohammad Alfelali, Elizabeth Ann Haworth, Osamah Barasheed, Al-Mamoon Badahdah, Hamid Bokhary, Mohamed Tashani, Mohammad Irfan Azeem, Jen Kok, Janette Taylor, Elizabeth Helen Barnes, Haitham El Bashir, Gulam Khandaker, Edward Charles Holmes, Dominic Edmund Dwyer, Leon Heron, Godwin Justus Wilson, Robert Booy, Harunor Rashid :: SSRN

"In intention-to-treat analysis, facemask use was neither effective against laboratory-confirmed vRTIs (OR 1.35, 95% CI 0.88-2.07) nor against CRI (OR 1.1, 95% CI 0.88-1.39), not even in per-protocol analysis (OR 1.2, 95% CI 0.87-1.69; OR 1.3, 95% CI 0.99-1.83)."

"Interpretation: Facemask use does not prevent clinical or laboratory-confirmed viral respiratory infections among Hajj pilgrims."

- - - - - - - - -

Of course, a "responsible" government has to "do something", or look callous, and politically incorrect... Just ask the legacy media. You know, the ones with a seriously biased political agenda....
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Well, a few years ago a formal study was performed during the Hajj in Saudi Arabia... About 7,500 people were randomly selected to participate, with a double blind study design.

Facemask versus No Facemask in Preventing Viral Respiratory Infections During Hajj: A Cluster Randomised Open Label Trial by Mohammad Alfelali, Elizabeth Ann Haworth, Osamah Barasheed, Al-Mamoon Badahdah, Hamid Bokhary, Mohamed Tashani, Mohammad Irfan Azeem, Jen Kok, Janette Taylor, Elizabeth Helen Barnes, Haitham El Bashir, Gulam Khandaker, Edward Charles Holmes, Dominic Edmund Dwyer, Leon Heron, Godwin Justus Wilson, Robert Booy, Harunor Rashid :: SSRN

"In intention-to-treat analysis, facemask use was neither effective against laboratory-confirmed vRTIs (OR 1.35, 95% CI 0.88-2.07) nor against CRI (OR 1.1, 95% CI 0.88-1.39), not even in per-protocol analysis (OR 1.2, 95% CI 0.87-1.69; OR 1.3, 95% CI 0.99-1.83)."

"Interpretation: Facemask use does not prevent clinical or laboratory-confirmed viral respiratory infections among Hajj pilgrims."

- - - - - - - - -

Of course, a "responsible" government has to "do something", or look callous, and politically incorrect... Just ask the legacy media. You know, the ones with a seriously biased political agenda....
I have no issue with the mask myself. Probably the biggest infector is the lack of social distancing, kind of proved out in Texas and now Michigan.

People in bars and in groups, close together sharing bodily fluids is a bad deal.
 

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Well, a few years ago a formal study was performed during the Hajj in Saudi Arabia... About 7,500 people were randomly selected to participate, with a double blind study design.

Facemask versus No Facemask in Preventing Viral Respiratory Infections During Hajj: A Cluster Randomised Open Label Trial by Mohammad Alfelali, Elizabeth Ann Haworth, Osamah Barasheed, Al-Mamoon Badahdah, Hamid Bokhary, Mohamed Tashani, Mohammad Irfan Azeem, Jen Kok, Janette Taylor, Elizabeth Helen Barnes, Haitham El Bashir, Gulam Khandaker, Edward Charles Holmes, Dominic Edmund Dwyer, Leon Heron, Godwin Justus Wilson, Robert Booy, Harunor Rashid :: SSRN

"In intention-to-treat analysis, facemask use was neither effective against laboratory-confirmed vRTIs (OR 1.35, 95% CI 0.88-2.07) nor against CRI (OR 1.1, 95% CI 0.88-1.39), not even in per-protocol analysis (OR 1.2, 95% CI 0.87-1.69; OR 1.3, 95% CI 0.99-1.83)."

"Interpretation: Facemask use does not prevent clinical or laboratory-confirmed viral respiratory infections among Hajj pilgrims."

- - - - - - - - -

Of course, a "responsible" government has to "do something", or look callous, and politically incorrect... Just ask the legacy media. You know, the ones with a seriously biased political agenda....
Absolutely true. Wearing a mask isn't all that effective at protecting the wearer.
They are much better at helping the wearer keep their germs to themselves and thereby avoiding infecting others though.
Ask anybody on any surgical team anywhere. They wear masks to prevent breathing germs into the patient's incisions and giving them infections.
We've know this for at least 100 years.
 

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Yeah, Adams, our USSG, told a half truth to try to stop the general public from buying up and hoarding N95 masks - just like they did with TP. He did it so the masks would be available for healthcare professionals.

Admittedly he was telling half of the truth when he said wearing one isn't effective in protecting the wearer - they aren't completely. He just didn't tell the other half of the story, and for good reason. People in healthcare couldn't get enough masks and they were the people most exposed, and the people we could least afford to have getting sick.

Even with him discouraging people from buying them all up, the shortage was bad enough that hospital workers were having to disinfect and re-use masks for multiple days. Imagine if people hadn't been dissuaded from buying every mask they could get their hands on. Healthcare workers would have had NONE and been completely unprotected. Wouldn't THAT have been great. Thousands of our medical personnel down and sick with the virus when the hospitals were getting swamped in places like New York and New Jersey. And remember: based on the experience of those places we were afraid that EVERY town of any size was going to experience the same thing. We just didn't know better.

An unfortunate no win situation. I don't blame him, even if what he said was misleading. We were in crisis mode and knew a lot less at the end of February than we do now. Of course with 20/20 hindsight it is really easy to be critical of the missteps made in the early days of this thing.
 
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An unfortunate no win situation. I don't blame him, even if what he said was misleading. We were in crisis mode and knew a lot less at the end of February than we do now. Of course with 20/20 hindsight it is really easy to be critical of the missteps made in the early days of this thing.
But you've been railing for days how the effectiveness of masks has been known for 100 years, and that anyone who doesn't understand the basics of how masks are effective in helping to prevent spread of viruses is ignorant.

There is no equivocation or subtlety in the Surgeon General's message to America: STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching Coronavirus.

Government please lie to me for my own good, eh?
 

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But you've been railing for days how the effectiveness of masks has been known for 100 years, and that anyone who doesn't understand the basics of how masks are effective in helping to prevent spread of viruses is ignorant.

There is no equivocation or subtlety in the Surgeon General's message to America: STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching Coronavirus.

Government please lie to me for my own good, eh?
Nope. Read my previous post again.
Government lie (half truth really) to keep as many masks as possible for the healthcare workers during a crisis and shortage.
They weren't lying to you for YOUR own individual good, they were lying to you for the overall benefit of the whole country - the most good for the most people.
The masks aren't 100% effective but having one sure beats the hell out of not having one. Especially for the healthcare workers on the front lines trying to save massive numbers of sick people.
I don't like that they lied any more than you do. But seeing the way selfish people hoarded TP, I can forgive the lie since we all know the same thing would have happened with masks. Hell it did to some extent anyway. Without discouraging people from hoarding the shortage would have been even worse and lasted even longer. They sure weren't going to discourage the hoarders by appealing to their sense of altruism and begging them to do the right thing for the benefit of others.
 

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The little troll said masks do not work and not to wear them.

Then he said they are necessary and people should wear them.

Then he said that they are vital and everyone Must wear them.

The real question is which time was he lying?

The fact that he's a liar has already been established.
 

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Government lie (half truth really) to keep as many masks as possible for the healthcare workers during a crisis and shortage.
They weren't lying to you for YOUR own individual good, they were lying to you for the overall benefit of the whole country - the most good for the most people.
But if cheap cloth masks are effective as you assert, then how much blood is on the Surgeon General's (and other government officials) hands for our 'benefit'?

Remember, the lie to America that masks are NOT effective was while the virus was raging across America. In fact, a mere two weeks later Trump declared a national emergency and the lockdown began.

Government has no credibility on this subject of masks, nor should be implementing mandates atop of their lies.
 

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But if cheap cloth masks are effective as you assert, then how much blood is on the Surgeon General's (and other government officials) hands for our 'benefit'?

Remember, the lie to America that masks are NOT effective was while the virus was raging across America. In fact, a mere two weeks later Trump declared a national emergency and the lockdown began.

Government has no credibility on this subject of masks, nor should be implementing mandates atop of their lies.
Why do you insist on conflating the idea of a mask to protect yourself with the idea of a mask to protect others?
All masks are not the same. A mask is a mask is a mask is a false argument.
Cheap cloth masks are an effective tool to preventing/reduce people spreading it - not to prevent you getting it - or at best marginally good at reducing your risk of getting it.
N95 masks are also effective to prevent people spreading it, but more importantly in this discussion, they are (mostly) effective at preventing the wearer from getting it. Or at least they are the most effective thing we have short of biohaz respirators - which are in even shorter supply.

That is precisely why the N95 masks needed to be reserved for the healthcare workers - and so the government agencies did what they could to stop people buying and hoarding them. The idea of homemade cloth masks was barely even on anybody's radar at that point.

The fact is you're Monday-morning armchair quarterbacking here Phil.

On Feb 29th the first discovered cases in the US had only even been known about for around a month.
China had barely shared any information with the world about it, and what they had shared was mostly understated and false.
But at that point, based on what we were seeing in NYC it was looking like it was going to spread like a brushfire through our major cities.

It is really easy to say "well we should have done THIS - or we shouldn't have done THAT" four months down the road when we know a whole lot more about the virus, how long it incubates, how easy it spreads, how to slow or stop the spread, etc. etc. etc.

Judging what was done then based on what we know now (but didn't know then) makes about as much sense as judging historical figures by today's standards - and then tearing down their statues because they don't measure up.

That was then, this is now. We've learned a lot since then. At that point we were in crisis mode and the government was doing whatever it could to prepare for what looked like an oncoming tidal wave. Under those circumstances, telling a half-truth - or even an outright lie - is the lesser of two evils. The worse thing would have been people hoarding N95 masks at the expense of the very medical professionals we needed to keep healthy to care for those who were sick and dying of this damned thing.
 

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Why do you insist on conflating the idea of a mask to protect yourself with the idea of a mask to protect others?

The fact is you're Monday-morning armchair quarterbacking here Phil.


I didn't. I simply illustrated that if cheap cloth masks are effective at preventing the general public from catching corona, as you assert, then that only serves to magnify the Surgeon's General's lie to the American people that masks are NOT effective in preventing the general public from getting corona. Hope that clarifies.

You have been screaming for days that the effectiveness of masks has been known among health professionals for 100 years. So please spare me the Monday Morning quarterback bs. The Surgeon General, Fauci and others knew they were lying to manipulate the America people. I know it. You know it. Any honest person reading this thread knows it.
 

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I didn't. I simply illustrated that if cheap cloth masks are effective at preventing the general public from catching corona, as you assert, then that only serves to magnify the Surgeon's General's lie to the American people that masks are NOT effective in preventing the general public from getting corona. Hope that clarifies.

You have been screaming for days that the effectiveness of masks has been known among health professionals for 100 years. So please spare me the Monday Morning quarterback bs. The Surgeon General, Fauci and others knew they were lying to manipulate the America people. I know it. You know it. Any honest person reading this thread knows it.
No argument here. I've already conceded they lied. I also pointed out why and that in perspective I understand the reason for the lie. And I believe any thinking person reading this thread can also understand why it was necessary - or at least perceived as necessary.

What would you have done? Tell everyone an N95 mask was the best protection available (in practical terms) and let the hoarders buy every mask on the face of the planet - leaving the people the most essential to saving lives of the ill exposed with no masks? So instead of 10,000 critically ill average folks getting sick and filling the hospitals you'd have 10,000 doctors and nurses sick and hospitalized and unable to treat the other 10,000 sick people? Would that have produced a better outcome in your mind?

I look at it like this: If my wife asks me if a new pair of pants make her butt look big, do I tell her the truth and suffer the consequences, or do I spare her feelings, and save my own hide and say "they actually make your legs look slimmer". Even if they only make her legs look slim because they make her butt look so huge? :)

Obviously we're talking about something a lot more important than that, but I think you get my point.

Again, I ask you, as the Surgeon General, faced with the scenario described in my second paragraph above, what would YOU have done? I think you know what choice I'd make - even if I knew that eventually I'd be vilified for it - just as USSG Adams is being.

BTW, am I to take your comments to mean that you don't believe that the simple paper or cloth masks surgeons wear are worn to protect the patient from infection by the pathogens that the surgeon exhales? That is the 100 year old example I've been "screaming" about. So far nobody else has disputed it, but by the way you phrase it you seem to be in disagreement with the validity of that example. Am I reading you right?
 

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Again, I ask you, as the Surgeon General, faced with the decision in my second paragraph above, what would YOU have done? I
Here would have been an honest alternative:

My fellow Americans. Masks for healthcare workers are in short supply. While we work through this shortage we ask that everyone use cloth masks. By wearing cloth masks in public, it will help prevent the wearer from spreading the virus to others. yada yada... God bless America.

Instead, America got this lie: STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching Coronavirus.

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Most Americans will rise to the occasion with straight talk. But when government starts lying and manipulating... credibility is gone. And that's where we're at now. Lying manipulating government officials like Fauci is now chirping dumbass comments to America "get over it". :rolleyes:
 

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My fellow Americans. Masks for healthcare workers are in short supply. While we work through this shortage we ask that everyone use cloth masks. By wearing cloth masks, it will help prevent the wearer from spreading the virus to others. yada yada... God bless America.

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Most Americans will rise to the occasion with straight talk. But when government starts lying and manipulating... credibility is gone. And that's where we're at now. Lying manipulating government officials like Fauci chirping dumbass comments to America "get over it". :rolleyes:
Seriously? In today's America? The average person will accept additional risk "for the greater good"? You sure aren't seeing the same things I am. Hell they were loading grocery carts full of toilet paper for God's sake! Something that in all reality is just a "nicety" but that we can definitely live without. And that was just on the RUMOR of a potential shortage. Remember the 22lr ammo shortage that lasted for nearly 5 years due to hoarders? Many of whom were trying to resell it at scalper prices to take advantage of their fellow shooters! And 22 ammo isn't a necessity either.

And you honestly think they wouldn't have done the same with masks if they were told that wearing an N95 was the best way to avoid catching it - but that they should instead wear a mask that protects others more than it protects them? Sorry to burst your bubble friend, but the hoarders DID exactly the same thing with masks that they did with TP and 22LR, despite every thing the government and health officials and everyone else said or did to discourage it.

Did you try to get your hands on even a painter grade N95 mask two or three months ago? I did. NOBODY HAD ANY. You couldn't even order them at one point. You could sometimes find them on eBay or Amazon - for up to FIVE BUCKS apiece. Totally due to hoarders and scalpers.

No, sad to say, but the spirit of altruism you describe is not the norm today. Maybe when we were kids. But not today. It is just like the mandatory mask orders. People won't lift a finger "for the greater good" unless it benefits them directly, and with little or no delay. That is a big part of why we're having this discussion. Thousands of people, when you tell them that wearing a mask will reduce the risk to everyone else but not necessarily to them say "well then to HELL with that! I'm not going to be inconvenienced". Or "I'm not going to because they are uncomfortable". Or "I'm not going to do it because Sleepy Joe says it is a good idea". Or "I'm not at high risk, let the people who are be locked away". Or "I'm not going to because Antifa protesters don't" or any number of other reasons.

Sorry, but the place you describe isn't the America we're living in today. I wish it were.
 

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Did you try to get your hands on even a painter grade N95 mask two or three months ago? I did. NOBODY HAD ANY. You couldn't even order them at one point.
Well there ya go. So the lies served no purpose other than to ruin government's credibility. Liars and stupid.

Your rationalizing government lies for the good of the people isn't working.
 

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Well there ya go. So the lies served no purpose other than to ruin government's credibility. Liars and stupid.

Your rationalizing government lies for the good of the people isn't working.
OK. So now that we agree that the statement in February was a lie, then that means that the statment that contradicts it is the truth. So you agree masks ARE a good way to stop the spread.

But yet you will resist that truth - and argue against wearing a mask - out of... what? Spite? Stubbornness? Politics? Because you were lied to back then. Makes perfect sense to me. :rolleyes:

Where is that spirit of altruism and willingness to do the right thing for the benefit of the majority that you were talking about? See why I say it isn't "the norm" anymore?

BTW, do you tell Mrs. Phil her butt looks big too? And if not, why not? Same principle. Contrary to what some would say, 100% honesty 100% of the time is not always the best policy. Sometimes a truth is more hurtful or damaging than a half-truth or even a lie.
 
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