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I bet a third of the responders in this thread didn't bother to click the link and watch the video. I did and agree with their conclusion. There isn't a lot of difference in the terminal performance of the commonly used self defense calibers. What will make the difference if you need to use a gun is good training and good shot placement. They all will fail if nothing vital is hit or if you can't get to the gun fast enough to use it. They all will work if you can put one in the bad guys brain before he does it to you . I have read cases of the bad guy soaking up a half dozen 45s and still going, just as I have read of cases of a single 22 ending it
 

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I bet a third of the responders in this thread didn't bother to click the link and watch the video. I did and agree with their conclusion. There isn't a lot of difference in the terminal performance of the commonly used self defense calibers. What will make the difference if you need to use a gun is good training and good shot placement. They all will fail if nothing vital is hit or if you can't get to the gun fast enough to use it. They all will work if you can put one in the bad guys brain before he does it to you . I have read cases of the bad guy soaking up a half dozen 45s and still going, just as I have read of cases of a single 22 ending it
There was a video? How many of them do we need to watch? What does Hickock say on the matter?:D

How about the Yankee Marshal?:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NR3roFBYNU

 

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How many here have actually used any handgun to stop anything critter or human? Or know what hot lead & cold steel feel like? (Yes, I have, no I won't discuss it except to say I came by my scars honest). The gist of the article is Shot placement, not caliber & Handgun stopping power is a myth. .0093 (difference in bore diameter) more or less won't matter, hitting vital areas does.
I've been involved in two on-duty police shootings; first with a .357 magnum 158 JHP - took two shots, second with .40 Cal 160 JHP; took one shot. The factors that made them different is that the .40 cal was about 7 feet away directly into the chest all of the damage was done inside, the second was first shot in the chest at 36 feet, all damage was completed inside, but still standing until shot the 2nd round hitting on the buttocks which knocked him down. The damage in the chest was so immense that he died about 5 minutes later - the .40 cal was instant. Shot placement is the most important - both of the calibers involved were police weapons and ammo. For what my two cents might be worth...

Al
 

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Well, I'm not going to say The Yankee Marshall sucks, (don't have to) but while I've never shot a person, I hunt,
trap, and eliminate pest animals all the time. I've seen full size Bobcats keel over dead from one pistol shot of cheap 22LR,
and I've seen squirrels take a rifle round of .223 hit the ground running, and never even stop.

A lot of stopping power is simply determined by what any given shot does, in any given circumstance. Hitting a vital spot
is never an absolute certainty, and if there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that every animal responds
differently to being shot. IME, there simply is no set, guaranteed uniformity of damage, or absolute killing potential.
Many things are likely to work better, statistically, but there simply are no complete certainties.

9MM vs 45ACP, IMO, it all boils down to "What's working best, for YOU?".
 

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I've been involved in two on-duty police shootings; first with a .357 magnum 158 JHP - took two shots, second with .40 Cal 160 JHP; took one shot. The factors that made them different is that the .40 cal was about 7 feet away directly into the chest all of the damage was done inside, the second was first shot in the chest at 36 feet, all damage was completed inside, but still standing until shot the 2nd round hitting on the buttocks which knocked him down. The damage in the chest was so immense that he died about 5 minutes later - the .40 cal was instant. Shot placement is the most important - both of the calibers involved were police weapons and ammo. For what my two cents might be worth...

Al
Don't know what brand of 158gr JHPs you are issued, we used 158gr Remington SJHPs (before the 125gr SJHPs were commercial) and the exit wounds were dynamic (frontal angle). My shooting partner made a 100 yard shot across a parking lot, through the shoulder to save the life of another trooper. It just depends on the situation, there are no predictive incapacitation models, maybe that's why we trained double and triple taps with the 357. Add oblique and lateral firing angles to the equation and sectional density/momentum become your friends. :)

Depending upon bullet selection (125gr XTP/Gold Dots), the 38 Super can be handloaded (N105) to factory .357mag 125gr MVs, 1450fps, 1911 Government 5" barrel...with about the same recoil as Winchester 127gr +P+ from a G17. 1911s are credibly fast to put into action and they point very well when there isn't time to use sights or both hands... .357mag velocities combined with 1911 split times makes for large crush cavities. :)
 

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BonitaBob,

You are correct on why the training. Not all situations will present a great target, so you have to train to understand the outcome; I carried a .357 Python off duty for years with the heavier 158 grain bullets (JHP), and when I started in law enforcement, trained with the .45 ACP 1911's in the Army MP's and used one (still have one) off-duty (Colt Defender). I really like the .45 acp, but understand that is my personal preference. Not because any caliber is better than another - as pointed out by both of us, it is shot placement that does the trick and what the round will do given the circumstances.

I tried the .38 super from a combat commander years ago (in the late 70's), but there was not a lot of ammo available at that time other than ball type. I liked the round but personally returned to the .45 acp. Again, it was and is a personal issue for me, not a choice for a "better round," because I've seen and shot some really serious 9mm rounds from my Sig!

I load my own ammo and enjoy some of the larger calibers because I can afford them (.41 magnum), at one time we carried the S&W Model 58 4" and I thought that was a great gun and the caliber was something to respect. Never shot anyone with it, but it sure got attention!

Sorry for rambling so much, but I do enjoy shooting handguns and I know when I carry a specific gun, it's because I know it has to work well the first time out.

Al
 

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9mm , bullet hits at .35 dia , might expand to .45 dia.


.45 ACP , hits at .45 dia.
 

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Assuming both have good bullets the 124 grain 9 can't possibly equal the power of the 230 grain .45 ACP so why discuss it?
 

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The OP's linked article cites Greg Ellifritz. His study, An Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power, is worth the time to read.

Conclusion... I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
 

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The OP's linked article cites Greg Ellifritz. His study, An Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power, is worth the time to read.

Conclusion... I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
I disagree with the "expert" Mr. Ellifritz.

Ok.......he says........."Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important."

Actually, it is.

There are variations in power......some large, some small.

In the right circumstance.........even a little more would end a fight.

Like in the famous FBI shootout in Miami........two agents died and five were wounded........

MAYBE because a 9mm slug stopped inches away from the heart of the major perp--allowing him go on a rampage with his Mini 14.

A .45 ACP or a .40 S&W would have blown up the heart.
 

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I do anesthesia for a living. The last bad guy I saw hit with 4 45acp rounds didn't make it. The last bad guy I saw hit with 9mm took 9 rounds and eventually walked out of the hospital.
 

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I find the Glock 30 Gen 4 in .45 ACP to have the most manageable recoil of any .45 I've ever shot.

Weight and double springs seem to have benefits. Recoil is actually mild to me.

And a total capacity of 11 rounds (14 with the big magazine) is plenty. So capacity is not a problem either.

It's a small brick, but with a good IWB holster and good belt it carries just fine.

I can shoot it accurately and pretty fast, too.

So......it works well for me.

A 9mm might be a little handier and have a little more capacity.

But........is a .45 a better one-shot fight-stopper with that big old Boolet? Seems logical.......BUT.......

I don't know. Nobody seems to know for sure.

Until I do know.......I'll carry the .45 ACP instead of the 9mm.
 

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You know........a lot of people wonder why the FBI and other agencies have gone with the 9mm.

The answer is simple.......far more women agents these days and women usually have smaller and weaker hands than men.......thus the smaller 9mm works better for them.......and most men handle the smaller gun just fine.

Back in the 60s the NYPD issued Three-Inch HB Model 36s to all their female officers. Same reason.

I strongly suspect ballistics are a secondary issue.
 
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